Adventism and Universalism

[sentipente]

JM. certainly you would not say that it geocentricism and heliocentricism are both correct representations of the cosmos. One has to be right and the other has to be wrong.

 

[AzA]

"Wrong" and "incomplete" have very different implications.

 

[sentipente]

"Wrong" and "incomplete" have very different implications.

Correct. Incomplete becomes wrong when it becomes more complete. Good is bad when there is better.

 

[AzA]

It is still "right" for me to say that the sky is blue, because within a certain context, it is. The "complete" answer might include rods, cones, the properties of light, a short thesis on the color spectrum and the lengths of waves, as well as a longer thesis on the rotation of the Earth and our relationship to the sun. But for our purposes, "blue sky" in daytime in the Northern Hemisphere works pretty good.

 

[StormyOne]

so what does it mean to be "saved" if being saved is "conditional" on people having to know who is saving them.... sounds like a bait and switch....

 

[sentipente]

so what does it mean to be "saved" if being saved is "conditional" on people having to know who is saving them.... sounds like a bait and switch....

Moreover, conditional salvation transforms Jesus from a Savior to a Broker.

 

[AzA]

Well, it has become popular to say that we are God's "partners" in salvation. So I can't see there would be much objection to the change of label.

 

[StormyOne]

Well, it has become popular to say that we are God's "partners" in salvation. So I can't see there would be much objection to the change of label.

did God need us to save us? What kind of partnership was it?

 

[sentipente]

did God need us to save us? What kind of partnership was it?

One only has to review human history and our contemporary condition to understand that salvation is never a question of need on the part of the savior. A savior has no choice but to save and the lost always want to be saved. Hence, salvation is always a unilateral and unconditional act.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

Very few Adventist believe in Universal salvation because it is hard to reconcile with several Biblical texts.

• Universalism presupposes that man has a soul as opposed to scripture's stating that God made man a living soul ie man is a soul.
• If man has a soul and that that soul is immortal (scripture tells us only God is immortal) then that is a form of eternal life regardless of the state of its sentience or of its ultimate destination.
• Additional to the fact that Universalism is rooted in Nimrodian humanism branching from there unto all pagan religions, it then generally needs a doctrine of eternal torment and a place to keep the undesirables hence hell, Purgatory and the ill referenced lake of fire if and until such time as they either reincarnate or are permitted into heaven.
• If man has eternal life apart from the salvation offered by God then Jesus' sacrifice was uselessly null and void and, also, He lied when He said He alone is the life and the resurrection and without Him none shall be saved.
• Setting the Christian doctrines aside, it is easy to see how all other religions, faiths and beliefs can-and do-find commonality in all they espouse thus giving root and rise to the developing New World Order and its prophesied One World, One Government, One Religion theme.

 

[AzA]

• Universalism presupposes that man has a soul as opposed to scripture's stating that God made man a living soul ie man is a soul.
• If man has a soul and that that soul is immortal (scripture tells us only God is immortal) then that is a form of eternal life regardless of the state of its sentience or of its ultimate destination.
• Additional to the fact that Universalism is rooted in Nimrodian humanism branching from there unto all pagan religions, it then generally needs a doctrine of eternal torment and a place to keep the undesirables hence hell, Purgatory and the ill referenced lake of fire if and until such time as they either reincarnate or are permitted into heaven.
• If man has eternal life apart from the salvation offered by God then Jesus' sacrifice was uselessly null and void and, also, He lied when He said He alone is the life and the resurrection and without Him none shall be saved.
• Setting the Christian doctrines aside, it is easy to see how all other religions, faiths and beliefs can-and do-find commonality in all they espouse thus giving root and rise to the developing New World Order and its prophesied One World, One Government, One Religion theme.

It really sounds as if you're rebutting something quite distinct from the subject of this thread. Several things, really.

 

[Windmill]

I'm sure I once read that some Adventists are Universalists, now I am trying to find out more about them.

In researching this I came across these statements:

"As ministers, they focused much more strongly on the health reform oriented doctrines of EGW and her emerging ideas of universal salvation (contradicting her earlier "Shut Door" testimonies) than on the fundamentalist- apocalyptic theology of the General Conference (as the formal ministry of the church was organized)."

"The vast majority of EGW's testimonies were about what Adventists should eat, wear, and do in propagation of the faith. Issues directly affecting the church business operations were often addressed. Many of the testimonies were spiritual in nature, but they ran the gamut from hell-fire damnation to universal forgiveness, apparently paralleling EGW's own spiritual development from her fanatically fundamentalist-apocalyptic roots to become the spiritual leader of a major new religious movement."

http://ubfellowship.org/archive/history/doc171.htm

I have also found this discussion on "clubadventist"

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/175822/WHY_I_BELIEVE_THE_BIBLE_TEACHE

Can anyone give me some background on Adventism and Universal Salvation?

Well the shut door theory is in a different league I think from unniversalism the latter I believe means that everyone no matter what will be saved. Whereas the shut-door theory refers to the idea that not everyone will be saved, however its focus is not on that but rather after a certain point people cannot change their fate, which I think she thought had happened.

This is only what I am guessing...

But I do know that universalism is more an idea on what hell will be like. I.e. no hell. This is more indirect conflict with the commonly held view amoungst adventists (and considered a staple as part of their/our theology) of annihilationism.

 

[sentipente]

Maybe we should distinguish between Universalism and Universal Salvation.

 

[AzA]

Roughly:
Universalism -- all roads lead to the same town
Universal forgiveness -- God forgives all
Universal salvation -- God saves all
Universal reconciliation -- God reconciles all.

In all cases, "all" means "all", but the implications of each stance are slightly different.

Universalism -- because all roads lead to the same town, it may not matter which road one takes, if one is focused on destination rather than means of transport. Some roads may be less direct or more poorly paved than others but if one's goal is simply to reach the destination, any road will suffice.

Universal forgiveness -- the approach may depend on a bilateral model of forgiveness rather than a unilateral one, and therefore may propose a kind of divine forgiveness that does not change the offending party and so allows a forgiven offender to reap full judgment despite his forgiven state.
Using a unilateral model of forgiveness instead turns this position into something more like universal salvation.

Universal salvation -- whatever God saves is saved, no ifs, no buts, or exceptions. Time is not a consideration. This model may focus on humanity alone.

Universal reconciliation -- whatever God reconciles is reconciled, and all of creation will be reconciled, no ifs, buts, or exceptions.

Those are the rough differences as I see them.

 

[mva1985]

Nice to see someone willing to at least give some sort of definition.

Roughly:
Universalism -- all roads lead to the same town
Universal forgiveness -- God forgives all
Universal salvation -- God saves all
Universal reconciliation -- God reconciles all.

In all cases, "all" means "all", but the implications of each stance are slightly different.

Universalism -- because all roads lead to the same town, it may not matter which road one takes, if one is focused on destination rather than means of transport. Some roads may be less direct or more poorly paved than others but if one's goal is simply to reach the destination, any road will suffice.

Universal forgiveness -- the approach may depend on a bilateral model of forgiveness rather than a unilateral one, and therefore may propose a kind of divine forgiveness that does not change the offending party and so allows a forgiven offender to reap full judgment despite his forgiven state.
Using a unilateral model of forgiveness instead turns this position into something more like universal salvation.

Universal salvation -- whatever God saves is saved, no ifs, no buts, or exceptions. Time is not a consideration. This model may focus on humanity alone.

Universal reconciliation -- whatever God reconciles is reconciled, and all of creation will be reconciled, no ifs, buts, or exceptions.

Those are the rough differences as I see them.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

The Bible does not support
Universal Salvation.

Incorrect. The Bible not only supports the possibility of it, but directly marries eschatology to soteriology in that possibility. To say the Bible does not support this sounds very much like 2nd graders, having learnt the ball-and-stick model for molecules, insisting that electron shells do not exist. Just because you've not had the advanced course yet does not mean your understanding surpasses all others'.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Universalism does NOT imply all roads lead to the same place; that would be UNITARIANism.

CHRISTIAN Universalism postulates that BECAUSE OF the sacrifice of Christ (and ONLY because of the sacrifice of Christ), salvation bes available to all, and that IN Christ God reconciles ALL of fallen creation to Himself.

 

[Restin]

Thus far, this thread brings up that SDA teaches annihilationism, and that mainstream
teaches eternal torment. What Does 'universalism' teach - something of a combination
between these two positions, with the end result being salvation for 'all'?

Restin

 

[Avonia]

What Does 'universalism' teach - in

A universal perspective sees that there is One family.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I am struck by the differences that can be seen in the SDA forums. A number of traditional SDAs seem to hold a view of salvation that is so narrow that no one could possibly qualify. Several progressive SDAs seem to hold a view of salvation that is so broad that everyone qualifies. I am simply struck by the contrast.

BFA