Adventism and Universalism

[Avonia]

I am struck by the differences that can be seen in the SDA forums. A number of traditional SDAs seem to hold a view of salvation that is so narrow that no one could possibly qualify. Several progressive SDAs seem to hold a view of salvation that is so broad that everyone qualifies. I am simply struck by the contrast.

BFA

Quite clearly, we are lacking when it comes to indoctrination!

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Thus far, this thread brings up that SDA teaches annihilationism, and that mainstream
teaches eternal torment. What Does 'universalism' teach - something of a combination
between these two positions, with the end result being salvation for 'all'?

Restin

Christian Universalism teaches no more nor less but that God bes in Christ, reconciling the WORLD to Himself, NOT imputing their trespasses unto them. That while we bes His ENEMIES bes when Christ died for us (securing our salvation) -- NOT when we did a little dance of illusory volition we could pat ourselves on the back and feel superior to others over instead of glorifying God's great mercy and power of His Holy Spirit about it. Christian Universalism teaches that Christ bes the saviour of ALL -- especially them that believe. it recognizes a benefit does in fact accrue to those believing herenow, living herenow in Him, but this does not exclude those not enjoying that blessing from the salvation He has wrought by His merit alone for everyone. The fullness of the NT Gospel teaches that in Christ all things bes reconciled to God, all of fallen creation.

We who embrace the Reconciliation Awareness may have differing views on specific items in the big picture such as the lake of fire, what it really means, how it really works, what bes it really for, etc. And we bes comfortable with the simple reality of not knowing everything because we walks by faith and not by sight. We TRUST God to be both omni-benevolent AND omnipotent -- to have a will what bes PURE untainted GOODNESS AND to have ALL power to obtain whatsoever HE wills, to work HIS will supreme above ALL, and moreover being God and being sovereign and all-powerful and all-good, that He has the power to accomplish this WITHOUT violation of the independent agency He grants to every sentient creature. We do not know all the full ins and outs of how it will come to pass that when human history closes, those who did not enjoy a relationship with Him during this lifetime will awaken to awareness of their personal reclamation by Him, but we trust from HIS word that He has made full provision for this in Christ and so somehow, some way, it will indeed be so.

Some of us have been granted eschatological insight into this question, however, and recognize the role God's own people, those reclaimed and enjoying awareness of it herenow, have to play in this process. This role actually consists of being those in whom the fulness of Christ bes manifest in the last days, the Mystery of God complete (Rev 10:7) or what your own EGW called "the character of Christ reproduced in His people." This awareness, what Moriah calls the Seven Thunders or the Voice of the Seven Thunders, forms an absolutely seamless and perfect union between soteriology and eschatology in the ultimate telos of the Mystery of God completed. Having this Awareness alone will not make someone "perfect" or "sinless"; it will only make us keenly aware of our imperfections and the utter helplessness of our plight as sinners and our utter dependence upon God to move in great and most undeserved mercy and pity toward us if we bes slate to have but a breath of Him to bless us.

It once sought to share these things with others here on CF but met with so much hostility and spiritual attack from them hostiles as to devastate with great harm and hurting, that it lost all hope for God to use it to do His work. So whereas it might have invited anyone who wished to ask it questions it does not believe it has anything of value to offer. Once in a blue moon (so to speak) it feels compelled to make some statements in general about these things but it knows where this will lead and it knows anyone who so wills such cruelty may point fingers and taunt it concerning its longtime affliction which apparently all believe to be incompatible with any real knowledge of the things of God and only care that it suffers so because that gives them easy ammunition with which to appear to shoot down its awareness through mocking and intimidation, dismissals and invalidation. They do not ask what bes the truth; they ask who tells it, and if the answer bes Moriah they scoff, for one infested cannot speak truth, or so they believe. They bes wrong, but no one cares, because the abomination what maketh desolate already stands in the holy place, and truth and justice lay fallen in the streets.

 

[Restin]

Moriah...And we bes comfortable with the simple reality of not knowing everything
because we walks by faith and not by sight.

Thanks much dealing with "Reconciliation Awareness". This brings me more peace
about understanding reconcilliation awareness, as perceived in universalism.

May God above, give us HOPE when all hope apears to have vanished!
Restin

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Restin -
You bes truly kind.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Originally posted in February 2007. Somewhere. We knows not where.

Originally posted by someone on another forum...
God wants the wicked as well as the righteous to finally get a chance to see God as the God of love that He is. The Great White Throne Judgment is not us being judged or punished. That has been settled in all of heaven before God returns. At the Great White Throne Judgment it is God Himself that is on trial by the wicked. Scripture says that all the wicked and even Satan Himself will bow and admit that God is love and that He has done everything possible to save even the lost. They will see for themselves the choices they themselves have made constantly rejecting the free gift of grace, constantly refusing to listen to that still, small voice speaking to them. They will see that it is they themselves [who are] the reason for [their] destruction. Sin must end but God wants even the wicked to know that He did everything He could to save them and that He loved them as much as He loved Jesus. It has nothing to do with vengence.

Does not the Bible say, "God is love?" 1 John 4:8, 16. Is not 1 Corinthians 13 about love? Therefore, is it not talking about God? All three of them, God, the Father; God, the Son; and God, the Holy Spirit. Let us ["re-mix"] it with this in mind [...]

God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit suffers long.
They are kind.
They do not envy.
They do not seek their own.
They do not boast.
They are not proud.
They are not rude.
They are not selfish.
They are not provoked.
They think no evil.
They do not rejoice in evil doing (and do no evil).
They rejoice in the truth (and in doing right).
They bare all things.
They believe all things.
They hope all things.
They endure all things.
They never fail.

Isaiah 28:21 tells us about God's feelings on that day, "For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act."

To which we see fit to add the following consideration finally taking this train of thought to its ultimate destination:

Then at that point, what's to stop God from doing a truly "strange" act -- one in keeping with His act upon the cross of preferring to let Himself be murdered than to destroy even those most deserving of death -- and offering those helplessly lost creatures eternal life? NOT, mind you, as virus- (sin-) infested pestilences in the universe, but upon the same terms He has always offered it: death to self, life in Christ.

You see, at that point, with the full revelation before all, eternal life and eternal death HAVE become one and the same as far as "the wicked" are concerned. If they are going to be "punished" (the use of such a ridiculous word in this context is a topic in and of itself for another time, by the way) with everlasting destruction, what does it matter whether it is total annihilation alone or that followed by total re-creation of themselves into non-sinning beings? EITHER WAY who THEY had been ends up destroyed, so why NOT, therefore, in the end, salvage them into what they were meant to be? EITHER WAY "they [as they had been] shall be as though they had not been" (Obadiah 1:16) That is, who they once were, in the form in which they existed previously, shall indeed be forever destroyed, forever gone.

The Bible is replete with references to God's intent to save all (John 12:32), His will to not let any perish (2 Peter 3:9), etc. It is also replete with dire and stern pronouncements concerning God's sovereignty. You know, all those "who are we to dare speak a word against Him" and "He does as He pleases and none can stay His hand" type statements, such as Daniel 4:35 or Romans 9:20. Now isn't it ironic that we will attempt to force ourselves to swallow that sort of "harsh truth" statement (and try to force it down the throats of others) as a means of justifying and exonerating the idea of God turning mass murderer on His enemies -- yet we totally miss the point and fail utterly to even consider applying that "harsh" medicine of sovereignty to God concerning Him doing something "strange" yet totally consistent with His character of love???

Seriously--come on, why bes that!! Why do we only resort to these heavy-handed pronouncements about "speak not a word to Him" "you'd best knuckle under, shut up and ACCEPT IT" SOVEREIGNTY of God when we are trying to support the idea of God doing something which, let's face it, is NOT "strange" in the least, but is what people have been expecting Him to do for hundreds of years now -- totally destroy the children He loves (or worse, torture them for eternity) -- yet we cannot even imagine applying those "heavy-handed" invocations of His right to rule as He sees fit (whether WE like it or not) to something MERCIFUL like what apokatastasis (Reconciliation Awareness) proposes???

Come ON now!!! Is God not far better than we can imagine? Can He not do "exceeding abundantly" above all we can ask or think? (Ephesians 3:20) Let me pose a question here in all sincerity. Is it possible for the human mind, "conceived in sin" (Psalm 51:5), possessed by a heart that is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked" (Jeremiah 17:9), and in any case, even if thoroughly cleansed by the blood of Christ and regenerated by the Word and baptism in the Holy Spirit, limited and finite, to conceive at all of anything that is more good, more moral, more just, more honorable, more merciful, more true, and more loving than God Himself? The answer is no -- and yes. No, if we are talking about God as He truly is, unchangeable, unshakable, unstoppable. But YES if we are talking about replacing our own previous limited and flawed model of who God is with one that is both superior AND Biblically sustainable.

Hardliner "sovereignty" statements are not the only declarations of God in scripture we tend to apply backwards to favor a punitive model over a restorative one. We even end up doing it with such beautiful statements entirely to the contrary as seen in Isaiah 55.

Isaiah 55:6-9
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Here the Lord clearly states not only that His thoughts are not our thoughts, nor are His ways ours, but that His are as much higher above ours as the heavens are above the earth. Given the reach of even the known universe today, that's saying quite a bit. In essence God is telling us that His thoughts and His ways are light-years beyond our own. And yet somehow we still manage to twist this very statement into fodder for bringing God down to our level -- or even lower. After all, which one of us would throw one of our own children onto a bonfire merely because he or she did not obey our orders? Which of us would (if we had such power) not only literally torture a son or daughter for all the ceaseless ages of eternity but preserve them alive and conscious for the entire duration purely to inflict suffering? An imbecile can see such a thing would be the height of sadistic madness; the desire or intent alone betrays a sick mind. Yet many of us think nothing of ascribing such behavior, whether directly or passively, to God -- the very God who infinitely abased Himself on our behalf to come to earth as a man and offer His very life for us in the Person of His Son.

Some have improved upon this model by suggesting the "lake of fire" destroys utterly rather than tortures indefinitely, but the improvement is far from complete. All right, so now we ask whether we would wipe out our own child from existence entirely merely for some refusal -- great, small, persistent or sporadic -- to yield themselves to our governance. The answer is still no!

It stands to reason that if God's thoughts and ways are light-years beyond ours, we therefore ought not to be able, try as we might, to improve in our imaginations upon who He is. Therefore, if there be any model of what we think of as the way God operates, or the way He intends to operate, which can be improved upon, the very act of conceiving an improvement upon it proves that it simply could not have actually been God's plan or "M.O." in the first place. Such it is with the punitive and exclusionary models of the eschaton, and so Moriah finds it to be when it contemplates the proposition of apokatastasis.

 

[Restin]

... what's to stop God from doing a truly "strange" act -- one in keeping with His act upon the cross of preferring to let Himself be murdered than to destroy even those most deserving of death -- and offering those helplessly lost creatures eternal life? NOT, mind you, as virus- (sin-) infested pestilences in the universe, but upon the same terms He has always offered it: death to self, life in Christ.

Not only are eternal life and eternal death - one and the same, SAME goes for each individual as well, especially those who consider themselves 'righteous'. Read Ezekiel 16, The adultry committed by Jerusalem is greater, (Jerusalem - the most deserving of death) worse than either Sodom and/or Samaria. Yet, God has a place for all three of them, according to His plan in Eze 16. So, as far as my own 'wickedness' is concerned, How would I like for God to treat me, my son or my daughter, when destroying the wicked? Within this concept, (being righteous and wicked at the same time, in this fleshly body) God does give me peace that His way truly is just, and Holy and Good!

It stands to reason that if God's thoughts and ways are light-years beyond ours, we therefore ought not to be able, try as we might, to improve in our imaginations upon who He is.

We are in agreement on this. I do think our 'imaginations' upon who He is, is not the same as His 'revelation' to me about who he is. My perception about God today is different than it was 10 years ago. No, God has not changed, he never changes, but my perception of/about Him does change.....Restin

 

[JonMiller]

Maybe we should distinguish between Universalism and Universal Salvation.

That is an important difference. I was reading online recently (So it might be wrong), that previous to Rome dominating the Christian church, that 6 out of the 8 major theological schools were for universal reconciliation. One held similarly to what we do, and than we are all aware of Rome's position... which is the one that won out through political dominance.

JM

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Jon, once you begin studying this stuff you find out it truly bes THE faith once delivered unto the Saints, for which we need to contend!

 

[Joe67]

Incomplete becomes wrong when it becomes more complete. Good is bad when there is better.

This is the answer to the apparent conflict between the two poles of thought expressed in the OP.

When good fights against better, good becomes iniquity.

Joe

 

[ListenerFriendly]

First, I would like to mention that the idea of universalism today as compared to "universalism" in the context of the cited works is slightly different. Universalism as seen as a movement today asopts the belief that all are saved--no matter what. In the passages you quote, the "universal forgiveness" is more so a belief that God accepts anyone. As much as traditional, conservative Adventists hate to hear it, Adventism began as a progressive-minded movement from all denominations. Its roots are extensively diverse and encompassed some of the more liberal teachings of the time such as new health treatments, reformed education, vegetarianism, and even the banning of alcohol (at the turn of the century, this was very much a liberal, socially progressive doctrine--now a conservative, bible-beater's movement). Even the politics and the involvement of the church was unique as the White's encouraged adventists to play issue-politics, while remaining bi-partisan in their efforts to counter much of what would be comparable to today's Religious Right. So, even today, in a church of 15-20 million people there are a lot of differing views and diverse opinions. Universalism, in today's sense that is, is probably held by a handful of "fringe" groups. Yet the majority of the church does not endorse this doctrine, as faith is accepted as grounds for salvation. I do note that someone claimed that the Adventist church's view on hell is similar to any other church's. That isn't altogether true. We believe in justice, but loving justice. Not a God that burns evil-doers for centuries, but one that shows compassion. The whole reason he has to do away with evil is because of his great love for the evil-doers. God is pro-choice, you might say. He let them make their choices, and realizes they would be miserable with him for an eternity. It is his great love that causes him to do such a thing--not his "wrath." Sure, he has wrath. He's not a wimp. he knows what is wrong, but it is a wrath that stems from love. Hell doesn't exist. Hell isn't a place. Hell is simply the love of God removing the sinful from the earth. It isn't the torture you hear of, but instead a cleansing of the Earth. the Adventist movement began as a non-denominational movement that was people from all walks of life thoughtfully and prayerfully searching for truth. That is what the movement should remain. The founders were scared of making a formalized denomination because they felt that what the church is today might happen. The adventist church could have one of the most relevant messages. We are a church of thinkers. we challenge and we search for truth. We might disagree, but we are longing for peace, for meaning in this world as well as the world to come.
I'm off my soap box.

PEACE

 

[AzA]

I'm not sure how reframing hell as mass mercy killing resolves the issues.

 

[StormyOne]

Love as a destructive force is an interesting concept.....

 

[AzA]

"Love as destruction" -- yeah it is interesting. Aspects of it I would probably propose, but not as the Maxwell contingent would.

I believe love absorbs and consumes and transmutes -- without destruction. Kinda like how the burning bush blew Moses' little Egyptian mind.

 

[ListenerFriendly]

I'm not sure how reframing hell as mass mercy killing resolves the issues.

I think making that claim is slightly taking out of conext. I find it greatly distressing to refer to any action of God's as "mass mercy killings." The point with hell isn't the result but the fact that God isn't tow-faced--it is the mercy you see in his justice. Hell as the most of Christianity teaches it is a horrid doctrine I could never accept. Hell, in a Biblical sense, is seen much as the flood. There are results, but those who are lost chose their own consequences. Hell is simply a cleansing of the Earth, a recreation. From that perspective, I can see the beauty and love in God's plans.

PEACE

 

[AzA]

It would be greatly distressing, would it not? I thought so too.

I agree that God is neither schizophrenic nor incompetent.

 

[sentipente]

There are results, but those who are lost chose their own consequences. Hell is simply a cleansing of the Earth, a recreation. From that perspective, I can see the beauty and love in God's plans.

PEACE

Where is the evidence that we chose to be born in this condition? Let me put it this way, if a drowning swimmer fights against your efforts to rescue him would you give up and say he has chosen his consequences? The onus is on you to show that any human being living in a sinless environment has ever willingly chosen a life of rebellion against their creator.

 

[AzA]

I would expect someone to try and make A&E fit the mold -- though they don't.

God's counterplay (Romans 4-6) tells us what the reality is.

 

[ListenerFriendly]

Where is the evidence that we chose to be born in this condition? Let me put it this way, if a drowning swimmer fights against your efforts to rescue him would you give up and say he has chosen his consequences? The onus is on you to show that any human being living in a sinless environment has ever willingly chosen a life of rebellion against their creator.

I think you re missing the point. I never made mention that we chose to be born into our condition, saying so would be denying Biblical fact that says we are all born sinners. What I said is that we are given the free choice to choose the consequences of our actions. While God acts as the final judge, it is our decision to follow Christ, and in doing so we eventually decide our destiny (by either giving ourselves over to Christ, or not). That was the point I was making. But it is really a trivial detail--the main point is that God is love and his actions are done through mercy, grace, and love.

PEACE

 

[sentipente]

I think you re missing the point. I never made mention that we chose to be born into our condition, saying so would be denying Biblical fact that says we are all born sinners. What I said is that we are given the free choice to choose the consequences of our actions. While God acts as the final judge, it is our decision to follow Christ, and in doing so we eventually decide our destiny (by either giving ourselves over to Christ, or not). That was the point I was making. But it is really a trivial detail--the main point is that God is love and his actions are done through mercy, grace, and love.

PEACE

If you are born into a condition you cannot be expected to change that condition. There are always consequences to one's actions but I suspect your view of destiny is flawed. For starters, you don't differentiate between not choosing and rejecting. You cannot find one human being who knows all there is to know about Jesus and has rejected Him.

 

[ListenerFriendly]

I am not sure I am catching your train of thought. It seems to me, and correct me if I am wrong, that you feel that we are born with inherently perfect or at least in some sort of neutral state? If so, I don't completely disagree with you. I feel that it is our nature to have a certain amount of inherent goodness--its our created instinct. It is the sinful instinct that has tarnished our nature into one might call the "carnal" nature.

As far as not choosing is something quite different. I honestly believe we will see Sufi, Moslem, Aeitheists, Taoists, and a vast variety of people in heaven who may have never happened to have had the chance to accept Christ or maybe who reject a false idea of God. That is what is beautiful. God is the judge, he is to decide.

Where you are missing my point is it seems you think I am saying that we change our condition. And that, as well, would be unbiblical. It is by beholding Christ that we become changed. God works out the salvation, it is our duty to simply chose to accept him into our lives and follow him. I am not sure of your ideas of perfection, if you have any at all, but I don't think in our lifetime we can ever be perfect. One of the greatest conflicts of human nature is the sinful tendencies colliding with our decision to accept Christ and eternity. Whatever the fact, as I said before, this is a trivial pursuit. The real issue is that God is love, that he accepts us, that he changes us.

PEACE