Addressing TrustAndObey's charge

[NightEternal]

Trust made this comment in the Trad section:

You can also see people speak out FOR the Sabbath that won't say a word when one of their "friends" says its no longer binding.

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=41208489&postcount=36

First, any of my fellow Progs who take this position on the Sabbath are welcome to do so, as it is a free country where we cherish religious freedom and tolerance. It does not affect my present understanding of the Sabbath, nor should it.

Secondly, just what is it you think we should be saying? Not getting all up in their faces somehow equals acceptance and endorsement in your mind, and it amazes me you could make such a leap in logic when that is not remotely the case!

I am once again reminded of this thread that I started a while ago:

Theological and spiritual grandstanding-why should it be necessary?


I wanted to open this one up for debate.

We Progs have had several charges leveled against us by our opponents. But there some charges which constantly re-surface and I believe they need to be dealt with in an open and free manner.

Some of us Progs have been taken to task for not having a plethora of Bible texts in our posts. I have heard this one thrown at us about 10 times already from several different people.

First of all, since when is the amount of Scripture texts in one's posts the criteria for how spiritual one is? As if cutting and pasting four full pages of Bible somehow makes us Mother Theresa? As if the fact that we don't have any somehow makes us spiritually inferior to those whose posts are comprised of 90% Scripture?

It is not even at the stage where it is merely implied anymore. Some have outright claimed we ARE spiritually inferior to them.

Another charge is that we don't 'stand' for anything. For some reason, it doesn't sit well with some of the TSDA's that there is no definite list of things we Progs agree on, and it annoys them that this does not allow for them to pigeon-hole us.

What is this mindset? Why are they threatened by the fact that we don't follow thier way of online dialogue? Why are they not happy unless someone is bloviating and pontificating loudly and dogmatically the whole 'HERE WE STAND' schtick? Why is it the only approach that pleases them is the 'defenders of the faith' one, where the individual trumpets and thumps thier theological chest like some in-your-face SDA apologist on proof-text steroids? Why is it that if we are not condemning and judging every single moral and theological issue known to man we are somehow supporting falsehood?

It's at the point now where I don't even believe anymore that some Trads join forums for open dialogue. The online arena is only there for one purpose for them, and that is to 'feel' people out and see if they are one of them.

Against homosexuality? One of us. Subscribe to all 28? One of us. Don't believe the earth is 6000 years old? Don't believe EGW was inspired? EEEEEHHH! One of them! Thanks for your time, next please!

Nice, neat, safe, categorized.

Don't have the prescribed amount of texts in the posts? Don't stand on the rooftop and loudly blast 'error' or make it abundantly clear where you stand on every fundamental? EEEEHHHH! One of them! Next please!

So, anyone else noticed this? What say ye?

It's time to set the record straight Progs. Have at 'er.

http://christianforums.com/t6477410...grandstanding-why-should-it-be-necessary.html

 

[mva1985]

that there is no definite list of things we Progs agree on,

LOL.... we all ready have your list Night.

Link to original:
http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=41066772&postcount=3

Quote:
Originally Posted by NightEternal
Here are my list of demands for a reformed SDA church :

THE IJ

* The IJ will no longer be considered a testing truth in the denomination. Any minister, scholar or teacher that has been fired or pressured to resign over this issue will be reinstated and will be given a full apology as well as full backpay and compensation.

* Desmond Ford is to be issued a full apology and reinstated, his credentials returned as well as provided full compensation and backpay. Every single minister who was sacked at the time of Glacierview is to be re-instated and thier credentials returned to them along with a full apology.

* A full apology is to be issued on behalf of Raymond Cottrell.

* Those who wish to believe in this doctrine are free to, but it will go on official record that there is no Biblical support for it and the denomination will repudiate it as merely a devising of the pioneers.

EGW

* EGW is no longer considered to have doctrinal authourity nor the authourity of the OT prophets, nor the authourity of the apostles. She is to have pastoral authourity only. Those who assert she is equal to the Bible will be fired, disfellowshipped and sued for blasphemy against God's Holy Word.

* Belief in her inspiration is no longer a requirement and such statements are to be removed from the baptismal vows immediately. Belief in her is to be totally optional and left to the conscience of the individual.

* The EGW Estate is to be shut down and all staff fired on the spot. Those who are responsible for withholding and suppressing information will have legal action taken against them and thier salary and benefits are to be cut off. There is to be no severance pay given under any circumstances.

* All of EGW's books, with the exception of Steps To Christ and Desire Of Ages, will be removed from all institutions, churches and schools, to be replaced with the writings of Luther and the Protestant Reformers.

* There is to be full and total disclosure in regards to EGW in all matters, and this information is to be widely distibuted to the general lay membership so they can decide for themselves concerning her.

HEALTH MESSAGE

* The clean/unclean distinctions are to be abolished. Anyone is free to eat what they want according to thier conscience, and the only criteria for abstaining from any food will be health-related, not salvific or moral.

* The church is to go on record that abstinence is not taught anywhere in Scripture, but rather moderation.

* Real wine will be served at communion.

28 FB's

* The 28 fundamental beliefs are to be abolished and replaced with just the basic Christian fundamentals.

BAPTISMAL VOWS

* The baptismal vows are to be abolished and candidates are to be baptized in Christ alone, not the organization.

INDEPENDENT/ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE MINISTRIES

* Every single one of the right-wing ministries is to be shut down and all employees and staff fired on the spot. The leaders and founders of these ministries are to be taken to court for defamation of the SDA organization by pandering to and encouraging the cult label.

* All ultra-conservative websites will be shut down and thier owners and founders disfellowshipped and sued for defamation of the Adventist organization.

* Those who insist on proffering sinless perfection or the sinful nature of Christ or any other right-wing heresy will be fired, disfellowshipped and sued for defamation of the Adventist organization.

SCHOLARS

* Our scholars will no longer be held under the control of administration. They are free to do thier own research and come to thier own conclusions on theological issues without an EGW straight-jacket.

FORMERS

* A full letter of sincere apology is to be written and read, broadcasted world-wide, to every single former who has had thier spiritual lives ruined by the Adventist church.

GC

* All staff at the GC, including the president, are to be relieved of thier duties and replaced by a staff of strictly Evangelical and Progressive SDA's.

* Desmond Ford is to be elected the new president and Edward Heppenstall the new vice-president. George Knight will head the ministerial division.

 

[NightEternal]

LOL.... we all ready have your list Night.

Link to original:
http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=41066772&postcount=3

Quote:
Originally Posted by NightEternal
Here are my list of demands for a reformed SDA church :

THE IJ

* The IJ will no longer be considered a testing truth in the denomination. Any minister, scholar or teacher that has been fired or pressured to resign over this issue will be reinstated and will be given a full apology as well as full backpay and compensation.

* Desmond Ford is to be issued a full apology and reinstated, his credentials returned as well as provided full compensation and backpay. Every single minister who was sacked at the time of Glacierview is to be re-instated and thier credentials returned to them along with a full apology.

* A full apology is to be issued on behalf of Raymond Cottrell.

* Those who wish to believe in this doctrine are free to, but it will go on official record that there is no Biblical support for it and the denomination will repudiate it as merely a devising of the pioneers.

EGW

* EGW is no longer considered to have doctrinal authourity nor the authourity of the OT prophets, nor the authourity of the apostles. She is to have pastoral authourity only. Those who assert she is equal to the Bible will be fired, disfellowshipped and sued for blasphemy against God's Holy Word.

* Belief in her inspiration is no longer a requirement and such statements are to be removed from the baptismal vows immediately. Belief in her is to be totally optional and left to the conscience of the individual.

* The EGW Estate is to be shut down and all staff fired on the spot. Those who are responsible for withholding and suppressing information will have legal action taken against them and thier salary and benefits are to be cut off. There is to be no severance pay given under any circumstances.

* All of EGW's books, with the exception of Steps To Christ and Desire Of Ages, will be removed from all institutions, churches and schools, to be replaced with the writings of Luther and the Protestant Reformers.

* There is to be full and total disclosure in regards to EGW in all matters, and this information is to be widely distibuted to the general lay membership so they can decide for themselves concerning her.

HEALTH MESSAGE

* The clean/unclean distinctions are to be abolished. Anyone is free to eat what they want according to thier conscience, and the only criteria for abstaining from any food will be health-related, not salvific or moral.

* The church is to go on record that abstinence is not taught anywhere in Scripture, but rather moderation.

* Real wine will be served at communion.

28 FB's

* The 28 fundamental beliefs are to be abolished and replaced with just the basic Christian fundamentals.

BAPTISMAL VOWS

* The baptismal vows are to be abolished and candidates are to be baptized in Christ alone, not the organization.

INDEPENDENT/ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE MINISTRIES

* Every single one of the right-wing ministries is to be shut down and all employees and staff fired on the spot. The leaders and founders of these ministries are to be taken to court for defamation of the SDA organization by pandering to and encouraging the cult label.

* All ultra-conservative websites will be shut down and thier owners and founders disfellowshipped and sued for defamation of the Adventist organization.

* Those who insist on proffering sinless perfection or the sinful nature of Christ or any other right-wing heresy will be fired, disfellowshipped and sued for defamation of the Adventist organization.

SCHOLARS

* Our scholars will no longer be held under the control of administration. They are free to do thier own research and come to thier own conclusions on theological issues without an EGW straight-jacket.

FORMERS

* A full letter of sincere apology is to be written and read, broadcasted world-wide, to every single former who has had thier spiritual lives ruined by the Adventist church.

GC

* All staff at the GC, including the president, are to be relieved of thier duties and replaced by a staff of strictly Evangelical and Progressive SDA's.

* Desmond Ford is to be elected the new president and Edward Heppenstall the new vice-president. George Knight will head the ministerial division.

NOT getting into this again.

 

[Mankin]

People love to wave the "This is the truth sign! Believe it or leave!" Actually Jesus condemned people like that.

 

[NightEternal]

When someone denounces some of our beliefs, and they decide to change churches, you can tell within just a few posts from that WHICH church they chose, even if they don't announce it.

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=41208640&postcount=37

Why do some insist on knowing which church Tall and Sophia now attend? Why this fixation? Why do they need to know? First Woob demands to know, now Trust.

Furthermore, why should Tall and Sophia feel obligated to reveal that information? How is it any business of anyone else where they have gone?

No, they don't have to reveal anything, that is their right.

When I left Adventism for a spell, my journey led me to the Seventh-day Baptists. Their journey has led them where they are now.

Where that is only they need to know, and that's fine with me.

 

[mva1985]

NOT getting into this again.

Don't worry Night just trying to have a little fun with ya!!! I know you're a good sport!

 

[tall73]

When someone denounces some of our beliefs, and they decide to change churches, you can tell within just a few posts from that WHICH church they chose, even if they don't announce it.

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=41208640&postcount=37

Why do some insist on knowing which church Tall and Sophia now attend? Why this fixation? Why do they need to know? First Woob demands to know, now Trust.

Furthermore, why should Tall and Sophia feel obligated to reveal that information? How is it any business of anyone else where they have gone?

No, they don't have to reveal anything, that is their right.

When I left Adventism for a spell, my journey led me to the Seventh-day Baptists. Their journey has led them where they are now. Where that is only they need to know, and that's fine with me.

Technically speaking Honor was first.

I guess they can predict our actions and we can predict theirs.

Why? Because there has been a steady stream out of the church for years.

Yes, many (not all) of those who leave wind up discarding a number of doctrines. I did not know if I would be one or not. So I just said I was going to go through all of them. I have said that more than once.

Many (not all) of those who stay question their salvation, say they are of the devil, say they were led astray, say it was just for comfort or acceptance or make some other claim that they cannot back up that some how comforts them over the whole issue.

Now, the real question of course is WHY so many reject the doctrines.

Because they are "closed minded?" as some have alleged? Then why would they change all they believed for years? That does not seem to be a sign of close-mindedness.

Because they just want to be normal? Then why did they stay for years?

Because they want to be comfortable? I was comfortable before an making about a third more per year than I will be now from the way it looks, and had the privilege of serving in full time ministry.

Because they are apostates and of Satan and don't love God? Then why go to any church?

Think what you like. I can only do what I feel I must based on what I find in Scripture.


Now the good news is that the church proper has actually treated me very kindly. They never questioned my salvation, though they certainly did not agree with my views. They wished I would reconsider and thought I was mistaken, but they said that I was still their brother and they prayed for me. They were kind enough to give us time to decide and accepted our decision when it was given. The administrators I have worked for have been nothing but top notch from the beginning, both before and after my questions. So as a church you can be proud of that.

My church members were also very kind, though it was a shock to them too, and I regret that had to happen.

But family, and folks on here have their views, and they are welcome to them. We will all give account to the One who will judge the living and dead. So I do not have to answer to them but only to Him. And I already have a whole life of sin that condemns me there, but Christ is sufficient. God can judge my motives in this decision.

 

[Sophia7]

When someone denounces some of our beliefs, and they decide to change churches, you can tell within just a few posts from that WHICH church they chose, even if they don't announce it.

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=41208640&postcount=37

Why do some insist on knowing which church Tall and Sophia now attend? Why this fixation? Why do they need to know? First Woob demands to know, now Trust.

Furthermore, why should Tall and Sophia feel obligated to reveal that information? How is it any business of anyone else where they have gone?

No, they don't have to reveal anything, that is their right.

When I left Adventism for a spell, my journey led me to the Seventh-day Baptists. Their journey has led them where they are now. Where that is only they need to know, and that's fine with me.

Oh, but Trust already thinks she knows already, apparently. (In reality, I don't think she would ever guess it right. And where's an eye-rolling smiley when I need one?)

 

[NightEternal]

* Night watches in horror as Tall and Sophia merrily go door to door handing out Watchtower magazines *

 

[NightEternal]

I'm fine with staying in this little corner of the forum when I do have time to come here, but why should I feel like I have to when this subforum is named after a church I attend? Seriously, why should I? To be tolerant?

Why in the world would you think you have to 'stay in your little corner'? Is interacting with other forum members so threatening that you have to enact self-imposed isolation?

Not understanding you a bit right now Trust.

 

[tall73]

It stands to reason that if one does not want to debate they avoid the debate area. But that has not been imposed by me. That is her free choice.

 

[NightEternal]

Yeah, it's much easier to just put half the forum on ignore, the online equivalent to burying one's head in the sand.

Might as well forget this whole thread I suppose. Apparently asking a few simple questions is 'cyber-bullying'.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I'm fine with staying in this little corner of the forum when I do have time to come here, but why should I feel like I have to when this subforum is named after a church I attend? Seriously, why should I? To be tolerant?

Why in the world would you think you have to 'stay in your little corner'? Is interacting with other forum members so threatening that you have to enact self-imposed isolation?

Not understanding you a bit right now Trust.

Why? the answer is pretty obvious when you cannot debate the facts, when you can't reasonably defend your traditions you resort to restricting the dialog.

Now what has it been 4 months since the rules for discussion debate forum were created and the side which wanted to limit peoples ability to discuss now are back to their complaints. They want the ability to convert other people to their way of thinking but want to prevent other people from offering their own views. It is the nature of hypocrisy and it is why fundamentalism is so very dangerous.

In fact it is that type of fundamentalism that has long be predicted by Adventism to bring about the Sunday law and persecution of Christians. Perhaps it is a fear that is based upon their own characteristics.

 

[StormyOne]

Why? the answer is pretty obvious when you cannot debate the facts, when you can't reasonably defend your traditions you resort to restricting the dialog.

Now what has it been 4 months since the rules for discussion debate forum were created and the side which wanted to limit peoples ability to discuss now are back to their complaints. They want the ability to convert other people to their way of thinking but want to prevent other people from offering their own views. It is the nature of hypocrisy and it is why fundamentalism is so very dangerous.

In fact it is that type of fundamentalism that has long be predicted by Adventism to bring about the Sunday law and persecution of Christians. Perhaps it is a fear that is based upon their own characteristics.

true.... and it is interesting that they (they being whoever is attempting to do what is described) are not content to have their view be the only view in the traditional area, the main forum area, the bible study area, they also are pushing to make the progressive area and the debate & discussion area reflections of their views..... no free thought allowed...

 

[honorthesabbath]

Why? the answer is pretty obvious when you cannot debate the facts, when you can't reasonably defend your traditions you resort to restricting the dialog.

Now what has it been 4 months since the rules for discussion debate forum were created and the side which wanted to limit peoples ability to discuss now are back to their complaints. They want the ability to convert other people to their way of thinking but want to prevent other people from offering their own views. It is the nature of hypocrisy and it is why fundamentalism is so very dangerous.

In fact it is that type of fundamentalism that has long be predicted by Adventism to bring about the Sunday law and persecution of Christians. Perhaps it is a fear that is based upon their own characteristics.

Why would a non-Adventist give a flip about what goes on in our church anyway? Is it any of your business?

 

[honorthesabbath]

true.... and it is interesting that they (they being whoever is attempting to do what is described) are not content to have their view be the only view in the traditional area, the main forum area, the bible study area, they also are pushing to make the progressive area and the debate & discussion area reflections of their views..... no free thought allowed...

That is absolutely not the truth Stormy--geesh--there is a lot of over-reacting in this group.

 

[Sophia7]

* Night watches in horror as Tall and Sophia merrily go door to door handing out Watchtower magazines *

I hope you're not serious. Why would we go from one group with some unbiblical beliefs that are divergent from mainstream Christianity to another group with even more unbiblical and divergent beliefs?

 

[StormyOne]

That is absolutely not the truth Stormy--geesh--there is a lot of over-reacting in this group.

you mean like you over-react?

 

[annie1speed]

Why would a non-Adventist give a flip about what goes on in our church anyway? Is it any of your business?

I care because I have Adventist friends. But I am pretty sure your post was not referring to me.

Seriously though, I believe I know and understand Adventist belief and doctrine better than some who post around here. (can't find the little nerdy smiley with the glasses)

 

[Sophia7]

Why would a non-Adventist give a flip about what goes on in our church anyway? Is it any of your business?

I care because I have Adventist friends. But I am pretty sure your post was not referring to me.

Tall and I have Adventist friends, too, and relatives. We spent our whole lives in the Adventist Church until recently. We devoted 10 years to ministry in the Adventist Church. We loved our church members, and saying goodbye to them was one of the hardest things we've ever had to do. We have great fondness for the church that has played such a large role in our lives. We have made the decision not to be members of it anymore because we don't agree with some of its teachings, but we can't simply cast off our Adventism and forget about it even though it seems to want to write us off as "apostates" who are unworthy even to associate with. We have good reasons to care what goes on in the Adventist Church.