Adam's Sin

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You seem to be saying the tree of life was not needed to keep Adam and Eve alive?
Where does it say they had the indwelling Holy Spirit?
Where does it talk about Adam and Eve losing the Spirit when they sinned?
If Adam and Eve had the indwelling Holy Spirit how did they sin?

Good questions! Why do you think Jesus went to every one of His disciples in turn and breathed the Holy Spirit into them. He was restoring in them what Adam lost when he disobeyed God and lost the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps they had not yet eaten of the tree of life, because God said to bar them from it in case they do eat of it and become immortal. This implies that they had not eaten of it yet.

Why wouldn't they have the Holy Spirit? The Scripture says that they fellowshipped with God in the garden. We know that no man has seen the Father at any time, so it would have been the Son who was fellowshipping with them, because He is God, and God had breathed the breath of life into Adam, in exactly the same way that Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit into His disciples.

So who breathed the breath of life into Adam? Why not the Holy Spirit? He is God! So Jesus was restoring to the disciples what Adam had in the first place, and the disciples became controlled by the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost.

Don't you believe that Spirit-filled believers can disobey God? Why then does God chastise and discipline believers when they go off the beaten track? The Spirit-filled believer is free from condemnation for sin, but still can be tempted. The difference is that God told Adam straight that if he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would die. And that is what happened. Adam became a mortal being and died 900 years later.

 

[bling]

Good questions! Why do you think Jesus went to every one of His disciples in turn and breathed the Holy Spirit into them. He was restoring in them what Adam lost when he disobeyed God and lost the Holy Spirit.

Scripture does not say that, but they did go out and perform miracles.

Perhaps they had not yet eaten of the tree of life, because God said to bar them from it in case they do eat of it and become immortal. This implies that they had not eaten of it yet.

Right, so until they did, they might be aging, but would not die if they stared eating from it. They were bard from the Garden so they could not eat from the tree.

Why wouldn't they have the Holy Spirit? The Scripture says that they fellowshipped with God in the garden. We know that no man has seen the Father at any time, so it would have been the Son who was fellowshipping with them, because He is God, and God had breathed the breath of life into Adam, in exactly the same way that Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit into His disciples.

The same reason the indwelling portion of the Holy Spirit was not given to anyone prior to Pentecost.

Man would have to complete the first part of his earthly objective, before being given the indwelling portion of the Holy Spirit.

So who breathed the breath of life into Adam? Why not the Holy Spirit? He is God! So Jesus was restoring to the disciples what Adam had in the first place, and the disciples became controlled by the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost.

Did Adam and Eve ever act like those on Pentecost?

Don't you believe that Spirit-filled believers can disobey God? Why then does God chastise and discipline believers when they go off the beaten track? The Spirit-filled believer is free from condemnation for sin, but still can be tempted. The difference is that God told Adam straight that if he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would die. And that is what happened. Adam became a mortal being and died 900 years later.

The believer having the indwelling Holy Spirit has to quench the Spirit before sinning, the person still has free will and the Spirit cannot participate in sinning.

 

[fhansen]

Good questions! Why do you think Jesus went to every one of His disciples in turn and breathed the Holy Spirit into them. He was restoring in them what Adam lost when he disobeyed God and lost the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps they had not yet eaten of the tree of life, because God said to bar them from it in case they do eat of it and become immortal. This implies that they had not eaten of it yet.

Why wouldn't they have the Holy Spirit? The Scripture says that they fellowshipped with God in the garden. We know that no man has seen the Father at any time, so it would have been the Son who was fellowshipping with them, because He is God, and God had breathed the breath of life into Adam, in exactly the same way that Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit into His disciples.

So who breathed the breath of life into Adam? Why not the Holy Spirit? He is God! So Jesus was restoring to the disciples what Adam had in the first place, and the disciples became controlled by the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost.

Don't you believe that Spirit-filled believers can disobey God? Why then does God chastise and discipline believers when they go off the beaten track? The Spirit-filled believer is free from condemnation for sin, but still can be tempted. The difference is that God told Adam straight that if he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would die. And that is what happened. Adam became a mortal being and died 900 years later.

These are some good thoughts IMO. As I see it Adam & Eve hadn’t yet “chosen God” so to speak, as we’re all called to do, summed up best by coming to love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. They moved away from Him, actually, with their act of disobedience. Eating from the Tree of Life would probably have signified moving nearer to Him.

Either way they ended up in exile, as we all are now, and that experience is designed IMO to help us learn the hard way, with the help of grace, of our absolute need for God and of His absolute superiority and goodness and wisdom-and so of His deservingness of our love and of the obedience that love naturally compels. Anyway, I’d be willing to bet that they learned that lesson long ago. We’re all like prodigals on a journey away from and back to God, even though our first parents set us on the initial leg of that journey. We’re each here to learn how to find our way back, yet still impossible unless the Savior first reaches down to pull us up. We just have to hang on.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Scripture does not say that, but they did go out and perform miracles.

Who??

Right, so until they did, they might be aging, but would not die if they stared eating from it. They were bard from the Garden so they could not eat from the tree.

Not correct. The aging process didn't start until they were corrupted by the Fall.

The same reason the indwelling portion of the Holy Spirit was not given to anyone prior to Pentecost.

Man would have to complete the first part of his earthly objective, before being given the indwelling portion of the Holy Spirit.

That may be true since the Fall when mankind was corrupted by sin, but that may not have been the case before the Fall.

Did Adam and Eve ever act like those on Pentecost?

They didn't have to, because they had direct fellowship with God and did not need faith. Also they did not need to preach to sinners because before the fall, sin had not entered into the world. The power of the Holy Spirit that came upon the believers at Pentecost was to support the preaching of the gospel and to make disciples for Christ.

The believer having the indwelling Holy Spirit has to quench the Spirit before sinning, the person still has free will and the Spirit cannot participate in sinning.

Quenching the Holy Spirit is a grievous sin in itself because it shows disrespect for the Spirit and the Jesus who bestows Him to believers in Him.

By siding with Satan and following his suggestion instead of remaining faithful to what God commanded them, they grieved the Holy Spirit and they lost their standing with God and the purity of their physical bodies because of it. Their righteousness became corrupted by sin, and so the Holy Spirit had to withdraw from them because He cannot abide with unrighteousness.

Christian believers can disobey, but then they are not depending on their own righteousness, which is still corrupt until they are glorified in the presence of Jesus when they join Him in the air at the Rapture. They have the righteousness of Christ, who, as the second Adam, obeyed all God's commands, and so His righteousness is acceptable to the Father, and that is the righteousness that we have. So that when we fail to abide by God's moral law, He does not hold that against us, because Jesus paid the full price for our sins, and so there is nothing for us to pay. We just confess the sin to God and He forgives and cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So you are saying there is no sin of any kind in the human race ... until a "age of accountability"?

No, I’m not saying that. I’m not claiming any knowledge about the deeds of children. I’m only saying the Bible doesn’t describe children as sinful nor that babies have a sin nature. We sin, make known wrong choices, cause we love it’s pleasures.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

John 14:6

New International Version
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Death entered the world though sin ... if babies/children had no sin (of some kind) they wouldn't die.

They don’t remain babies.

You are correct babies/children are not aware of their sin until a certain age (only God knows) .. so because they do die sometimes before that time ... that only leaves a sin nature (call it what you want).

Babies never die because of they behavior or thoughts. They die from disease or mistreatment from adults. They those persons die, they are not babies but grown out of babyhood. So no, that doesn’t leave an inborn sin nature.

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

His mother was thought to have committed adultery. Doesnt affect the baby.

Yes ... they are considered innocent and covered by the blood of Jesus ... but that does mean they were void of a sin nature ... from conception.

Sun nature is never mentioned in the bible and babies are not described as sinful.

We inherit Adam’s sinful nature (through his corrupt seed) and are sinful from the moment of conception. This is the truth of the depravity of our nature.

No, it’s a false doctrine designed to help men avoid real repentance for deeds they really did. The Holy Spirit is replaces by a doctrine.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

babies are not described as sinful.

Totally.
"If (at least) one of the parents is a believer, then the babies are sanctified; otherwise they are unclean"

1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified ...
1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his believing wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.
For the unbelieving husband is made holy by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy by the husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is they are holy.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Who??
Not correct. The aging process didn't start until they were corrupted by the Fall.
That may be true since the Fall when mankind was corrupted by sin, but that may not have been the case before the Fall.
They didn't have to, because they had direct fellowship with God and did not need faith. Also they did not need to preach to sinners because before the fall, sin had not entered into the world. The power of the Holy Spirit that came upon the believers at Pentecost was to support the preaching of the gospel and to make disciples for Christ.
Quenching the Holy Spirit is a grievous sin in itself because it shows disrespect for the Spirit and the Jesus who bestows Him to believers in Him.

By siding with Satan and following his suggestion instead of remaining faithful to what God commanded them, they grieved the Holy Spirit and they lost their standing with God and the purity of their physical bodies because of it. Their righteousness became corrupted by sin, and so the Holy Spirit had to withdraw from them because He cannot abide with unrighteousness.

Pretty good.

Christian believers can disobey, but then they are not depending on their own righteousness, which is still corrupt until they are glorified in the presence of Jesus when they join Him in the air at the Rapture. They have the righteousness of Christ, who, as the second Adam, obeyed all God's commands, and so His righteousness is acceptable to the Father, and that is the righteousness that we have. So that when we fail to abide by God's moral law, He does not hold that against us, because Jesus paid the full price for our sins, and so there is nothing for us to pay. We just confess the sin to God and He forgives and cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

Annanias and Saphira didn’t seem to have their sin not held against them. They had to pay for their sin. Jesus actually talked about counting the COST (something you pay) in order to follow him.

If all a person has when they stand before God is what Jesus did, they will feel the weight of being poor, blind, and naked. Jesus didn’t come so we can relax and do nothing for God. He came so we could give everything, including sinful pleasures, so that we might have treasures in Heaven.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Annanias and Saphira didn’t seem to have their sin not held against them. They had to pay for their sin.

They did not repent , but continued in sin, claiming yes, it was sold for that much.

If a thief does not repent, if an adulterer, or someone greedy does not repent,
they will suffer for their sin also.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

They did not repent , but continued in sin, claiming yes, it was sold for that much.

If a thief does not repent, if an adulterer, or someone greedy does not repent,
they will suffer for their sin also.

God did that to Ananias and Sapphira to give us a written record of what would happen to someone who lies to the Holy Spirit. There have been many similar incidents where the people haven't been struck dead, but that is because of God's mercy; Also, after that first act, God put the discipline of believers into the hands of the church. If God killed everyone who lies to the Holy Spirit in our days, there would be a lot less professing Christians than there are at present.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

God did that to Ananias and Sapphira to give us a written record of what would happen to someone who lies to the Holy Spirit. There have been many similar incidents where the people haven't been struck dead, but that is because of God's mercy; Also, after that first act, God put the discipline of believers into the hands of the church. If God killed everyone who lies to the Holy Spirit in our days, there would be a lot less professing Christians than there are at present.

When Ekklesia are threatened with beatings, arrest, imprisonment and execution,
fewer fake believers remain in the assembly. (the best examples are in China, that I know of; but also likewise other countries where they may die the same day they are found out/ discovered).
When no one is even challenged, not even ever proven true, not ever proven honest,
then the "many antichrists among us" grows and grows and grows.

As to why God did that to Ananias and Sapphira, let Him Say. Is it recorded in His Word ?
And when many similar incidents(sickness and death) DID HAPPEN, for disobedience to His Word, for sin,
how many were left in the assembly ? (in the first century) (according to HIS WORD)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

When Ekklesia are threatened with beatings, arrest, imprisonment and execution,
fewer fake believers remain in the assembly. (the best examples are in China, that I know of; but also likewise other countries where they may die the same day they are found out/ discovered).
When no one is even challenged, not even ever proven true, not ever proven honest,
then the "many antichrists among us" grows and grows and grows.

As to why God did that to Ananias and Sapphira, let Him Say. Is it recorded in His Word ?
And when many similar incidents(sickness and death) DID HAPPEN, for disobedience to His Word, for sin,
how many were left in the assembly ? (in the first century) (according to HIS WORD)

People were afraid to associate with the church because of what happened to Ananias and Sapphira.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

People were afraid to associate with the church because of what happened to Ananias and Sapphira.

Yet members of the assembly of Ekklesia in Corinth apparently did not learn the lesson well.

"Many were sick and dying" for not being right. (other words used in Scripture, for their sin)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yet members of the assembly of Ekklesia in Corinth apparently did not learn the lesson well.

"Many were sick and dying" for not being right. (other words used in Scripture, for their sin)

True!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Oh, don't forget, this is still true today. Many who are sick and dying is because of sin, combined also with "For lack of knowledge My people perish" and maybe several other reasons granted by the Father revealed in Scripture concerning today.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God did that to Ananias and Sapphira to give us a written record of what would happen to someone who lies to the Holy Spirit. There have been many similar incidents where the people haven't been struck dead, but that is because of God's mercy;_

So you think no one since has lied to the HS? So you think people never told the HS something that that wasn’t true? Your reason is not correct. He didn’t kill them for our sake.

Also, after that first act, God put the discipline of believers into the hands of the church.

Where do you see that? God is no longer doing anything against those who lie to him? So why the lesson with A and S?

If God killed everyone who lies to the Holy Spirit in our days, there would be a lot less professing Christians than there are at present.

Ah, so you do admit people lie and God just doesn’t do anything. Bummer for A and S.

Oscar, you might want to consider that you might not know.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

People were afraid to associate with the church because of what happened to Ananias and Sapphira.

Actually the church grew astoundingly fast. The fear of the Lord is not being afraid.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Actually the church grew astoundingly fast. The fear of the Lord is not being afraid.

Oh. Not my opinion. I was just repeating what the reference in Acts actually said.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So you think no one since has lied to the HS? So you think people never told the HS something that that wasn’t true?

Did I say that? I don't think so.

Your reason is not correct. He didn’t kill them for our sake. Where do you see that?

I didn't say that either. I said that the record given to us about God killing them is a lesson to us. I said nothing about the even being for our sake. Comprehension is a great skill to have!

God is no longer doing anything against those who lie to him? So why the lesson with A and S?

I didn't say that either. Another poster commented that Paul observed that in the Corinthian church people got sick and died before their time because they disrespected the Lord's table. I agreed with him. Did you not read that post?

Ah, so you do admit people lie and God just doesn’t do anything. Bummer for A and S.

If people still lie to the Holy Spirit and are not struck down dead by the power of God, why do you think that is so? There are two possible reasons - God's mercy, and the church having not even a fraction of the power and presence of the Holy Spirit that the early church had when Peter was leading it.

Oscar, you might want to consider that you might not know.

You have no way of knowing what I know and do not know. So it's better to continue kicking the ball and not the player (namely, me!).

Actually, if you really want to know, I heard it from John MacArthur, a better Bible teacher than I will ever be!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Did I say that? I don't think so.

If you say God did that to them to SHOW us what happens if we do and NO ONE since was so struck down for that reason, it begs the question as to why.

I didn't say that either. I said that the record given to us about God killing them is a lesson to us. I said nothing about the even being for our sake. Comprehension is a great skill to have!

Alesson for what? You said what happens when we lie to the HS. But then you admit people lie to the HS and nothing happens. Do you see the problem? It’s not a lesson.

I didn't say that either. Another poster commented that Paul observed that in the Corinthian church people got sick and died before their time because they disrespected the Lord's table. I agreed with him. Did you not read that post?

I didn’t but thanks for pointing it out. Very astute, both the poster and you. It is true.

If people still lie to the Holy Spirit and are not struck down dead by the power of God, why do you think that is so?

Most Christians aren’t walking on a level where those sins result in swift response.

There are two possible reasons - God's mercy, and the church having not even a fraction of the power and presence of the Holy Spirit that the early church had when Peter was leading it.

I think it’s because they knew a lot more than we do. To whom much is given, much is required. It wasn’t a lesson for us. Most aren’t on that level. Those who are don’t need that passage to know what is required.

You have no way of knowing what I know and do not know. So it's better to continue kicking the ball and not the player (namely, me!).

Youre not the first to say this sort of thing and it astounds me every time. People write what they know in a post and then claim no one knows what they know even after reading what they wrote.

Actually, if you really want to know, I heard it from John MacArthur, a better Bible teacher than I will ever be!

He’s a good teacher for sure.