Adam's Sin

[HardHead]

Right, so until they did, they might be aging, but would not die if they stared eating from it. They were bard from the Garden so they could not eat from the tree.

God is the tree here. He is the source of life and when union with Him is lost so is life therefore death arises.

They moved away from Him, actually, with their act of disobedience. Eating from the Tree of Life would probably have signified moving nearer to Him.

I agree. The barring from the garden is estrangement from God therefore this means death because He is the source of life.

Christ is God the Son and is also a man therefore His perfect union with God the Father and Christ's sinless nature make Christ not subject to death. His choice was to obey God the Father unlike Adam.

 

[HardHead]

The human body is designed to replace all it cells every seven years, and so it should not age.

It depends on how you look at it. From a purely physical viewpoint, entropy guarantees we age and eventually die of decrepitude. This is independent of any cell replacement or anything else. No amount of sequential replacement can prevent this.

That is why the human body ages.

Agreed. Entropy (i.e. loss of information) is the key from a physical viewpoint.

I know entropy is not on topic and I'm not trying to steer anything in a different direction. It's just conversation so I thought I would add this.

 

[fhansen]

I agree. The barring from the garden is estrangement from God therefore this means death because He is the source of life.

Yep! And I believe we're to become sick of that estrangement, in a world where man's will reigns in the moral sphere with all that entails, so that like prodigals we may be all the more ready to return to the Father when revelation and grace are offered.

Christ is God the Son and is also a man therefore His perfect union with God the Father and Christ's sinless nature making Christ not subject to death. His choice was to obey God the Father unlike Adam.

And we're to come to obey now as well, unlike Adam, the first step of which is the obedience of faith. Adam's act was basically one of unbelief-he literally disbelieved God-denying His authority and so rejecting Him as his God in the process.

 

[HardHead]

We do not know that, we just know they would not die (so they could age) with the help of the tree of life, which they had not eaten from yet. The tree might have stopped their aging.

Interesting.

I see the tree as God Himself or at the very least a created yet direct conduit of some kind that leads to union with Him. Estrangement prevents union with the source of life so we die. Estrangement arises from sin (why we are not in the garden any longer) so we (the offspring that result from being fruitful and multiplying) all must die.

Aging is another matter. I did not think of it along the lines you suggest. It's an interesting thought.

To me, Adam and Eve would not have been subject to aging before the fall. God kept them as they were created via His life-giving grace. In my mind this is a luminescent state that does not involve death or decay.

Moses came down from Mount Sinai. As he came down from the mountain with the two tablets of the covenant in his hand, Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone because he had been talking with God. (Exodus 34:29, NRSV)

The further we get from God the less we are animated with His presence and we reflect it less (i.e. the glowing is less).

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It depends on how you look at it. From a purely physical viewpoint, entropy guarantees we age and eventually die of decrepitude. This is independent of any cell replacement or anything else. No amount of sequential replacement can prevent this.


Agreed. Entropy (i.e. loss of information) is the key from a physical viewpoint.

I know entropy is not on topic and I'm not trying to steer anything in a different direction. It's just conversation so I thought I would add this.

That is another way of explaining why we age and die. But whatever it is, it is something that has happened to us, because of sin, to limit our life span. It is interesting that people had very long lives until God limited the lifespan to 120 years, and after that it was rare for anyone to live longer. Then all the disobedient generation in the wilderness lasted no longer than 71 years, as God decreed for them. But today, it is not rare for people to live past 100 years of age. But many die before their time because of other factors, not because God decreed that they should die before 120 years of age. Stress, smoking, disease, diet, are all factors that limit lifespans.

 

[HardHead]

Yep! And I believe we're to become sick of that estrangement, in a world where man's will reigns in the moral sphere with all that entails, so that like prodigals we may be all the more ready to return to the Father when revelation and grace are offered.

I agree with this.

This is why all of nature cries out from it's position of pain and suffering yet with hope for His will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. This is the pain of sin. Our collective Christian voice begs for Christ to be the bread of life for all people, and for all of creation. May God have mercy on us all.

9 "Pray then in this way: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And do not bring us to the time of trial, but rescue us from the evil one. (Matthew 6:9-13, NRSV)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

1st Corinthians 15:53
New International Version
For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Are we conceived mortal or immortal? Was Adam & Eve originally created mortal or immortal? What was it that changed and thereby effected everyone conceived thereafter? At conception are we perfect or imperfect?

What are the wages of sin? Because of sin what is passed on to the human race?

and I didn't say .... we inherit the sins Adam & Eve committed (each are responsible for there own sin).

We were and are talking about babies and small children ... so let's stay in that context ok?

You need to realize babies don’t fit into the categories you describe.

 

[HardHead]

all factors that limit lifespans

Agreed.

I'm not saying that external forces do not apply; however, all matter decays due to entropy. All of it, everywhere, without exception, no matter what.

Dirty living gets us there faster but we all arrive at the same place so to speak, no matter what.

Anyway, lets keep entropy and thermodynamics for another thread. The OP asked about something specific that was not this.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Agreed.

I'm not saying that external forces do not apply; however, all matter decays due to entropy. All of it, everywhere, without exception, no matter what.

Dirty living gets us there faster but we all arrive at the same place so to speak, no matter what.

Anyway, lets keep entropy and thermodynamics for another thread. The OP asked about something specific that was not this.

Your thoughts are great though and worth considering.

 

[HardHead]

Your thought are great though and worth considering.

Thanks Oscarr. I appreciate it more than I can tell you. All the best to you.

 

[bling]

God is the tree here. He is the source of life and when union with Him is lost so is life therefore death arises.

I am not finding that in scripture, and the tree of life in heaven does not seem to be God?

 

[HardHead]

I am not finding that in scripture, and the tree of life in heaven does not seem to be God?

This is how I read the scripture about the tree of life. This is my own speculative interpretation. You may have a different view.

Note that I also said that the tree may be a creation of some kind that allows a direct connection to Him. I am also speculating about this.

What is more likely is up to you to discern but in ether case, none of this is really relevant in my opinion.

What matters is that the passages are talking about a union with God, or a lack of it. If this union is direct and personal or via a created construct doesn't really matter in my view.

To make sure that I am not stepping on anyone's beliefs, I am clearly saying that is in my view which is my opinion. I hope you can see that.

 

[HardHead]

I am not finding that in scripture, and the tree of life in heaven does not seem to be God?

Have a look to see what I am saying. By this I mean in my view ...

I see the tree as God Himself or at the very least a created yet direct conduit of some kind that leads to union with Him.

 

[eleos1954]

You need to realize babies don’t fit into the categories you describe.

well ... seems to me they would ... the human race was corrupted (sin entered the world) through Adam & Eve ... (through their seed) .... seems to me the seed is corrupted ... sin is like a dreadful inherited disease.

Anything in His Word does it say babies "don't fit into" the category?

Ephesians 2:3

King James Bible
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

the word nature in the Greek here is:

phusis: nature
Original Word: φύσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: phusis
Phonetic Spelling: (foo'-sis)
Definition: nature
Usage: nature, inherent nature, origin, birth.

As most everyone knows ... children were killed, sometimes at the direction of the Lord ... or by the Lord Himself .... (the flood in Genesis).

Really only leaves two scenarios: because ... as stated ... obviously many of them did not have knowledge of what sin is .... so ...

Either they (babies/small children) will all be saved ... or ....

Because God knows the beginning to the end .... he knows what choices people will/would make (but does not control the choices) ... then ... of the innocents He knew/knows what choices they would have made ... and will act according to His foreknowledge.

It is one of the most difficult things to try and explain to non-believers ... and really ... for us to understand ourselves.

We do ... of course ... fully trust Him in everything ... even when it goes beyond our understanding.

Personally, I believe they (babies/small children) do need to be saved and all will be saved.

Such as you put forth ...

Matthew 19

Jesus Blesses the Children
(Mark 10:13-16; Luke 18:15-17)

13Then the little children were brought to Jesus for Him to place His hands on them and pray for them. And the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15And after He had placed His hands on them, He went on from there.

 

[HardHead]

Personally, I believe they (babies/small children) do need to be saved and all will be saved.

That is interesting.

I agree but I also agree with adult baptism.

I suppose that this is the reason for confirmation in some churches. This kind of gets around the matter with practical means to some degree.

How quickly children accumulate sin is also a consideration in this.

It's a good topic. Thanks.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

well ... seems to me they would ... the human race was corrupted (sin entered the world) through Adam & Eve ... (through their seed) .... seems to me the seed is corrupted ... sin is like a dreadful inherited disease.

It entered the world before they had children. Sin is not a disease and it’s not inherited.

Anything in His Word does it say babies "don't fit into" the category?

Yes, Jesus says heaven contains people like the little children.

Ephesians 2:3

King James Bible
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Babies aren’t doing any of that.

the word nature in the Greek here is:

phusis: nature
Original Word: φύσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: phusis
Phonetic Spelling: (foo'-sis)
Definition: nature
Usage: nature, inherent nature, origin, birth.

Since little children aren’t doing that, they didn’t inherit it. Since Jesus didn’t take your view of babies, I don’t believe your view either.

As most everyone knows ... children were killed, sometimes at the direction of the Lord ... or by the Lord Himself .... (the flood in Genesis).

The flood wasn’t directed at babies. But where did God direct the killing of babies specifically?

Really only leaves two scenarios: because ... as stated ... obviously many of them did not have knowledge of what sin is .... so ...

Either they (babies/small children) will all be saved ... or ....

Because God knows the beginning to the end .... he knows what choices people will/would make (but does not control the choices) ... then ... of the innocents He knew/knows what choices they would have made ... and will act according to His foreknowledge
It is one of the most difficult things to try and explain to non-believers ... and really ... for us to understand ourselves.

I don’t think it’s difficult. If we have the view Jesus has, it’s easy.

We do ... of course ... fully trust Him in everything ... even when it goes beyond our understanding.

Understanding is a lot better.

Personally, I believe they (babies/small children) do need to be saved and all will be saved.

Such as you put forth ...

Matthew 19

Jesus Blesses the Children
(Mark 10:13-16; Luke 18:15-17)

13Then the little children were brought to Jesus for Him to place His hands on them and pray for them. And the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15And after He had placed His hands on them, He went on from there.

That’s my view. Heaven belongs to such as the little children.

 

[DennisTate]

Is the guilt of Adam's sin imputed to his offspring (us)? Why or why not?

Rick Joyner added some fascinating details to the situation with Adam from a dream that he had.

The Call Rick Joyner

Rick Joyner, The Call:

Love Releases Life

Another man who looked almost exactly like Abel came and stood beside him.

“I am Adam,” he said. “I was given authority over the earth, but I gave it to the evil one by obeying evil. He now rules in my place and your place. The earth was given to man, but the evil one has taken it. The authority I lost was restored by the cross. Jesus Christ is ‘the last Adam,’ and He will soon take His authority and rule. He will rule through mankind because He gave the earth to mankind. Those who live in your times will prepare the earth for Him to rule.”

“Please tell me more,” I asked, a little surprised to see Adam, but wanting to hear everything he had to say. “How do we prepare for Him?”

“Love,” he said. “You must love one another. You must love the earth, and you must love life. My sin released the death that now flows as rivers upon the earth. Your love will release rivers of life. When evil reigns, death is stronger than life, and death prevails over life. When righteousness reigns, life prevails, and life is stronger than death. Soon the life of the Son of God will swallow up the death that was released through my disobedience. It is not just living that you must love, but life. Death is your enemy. You are called to be a messenger of life.

“When the Lord’s people begin to love, He will use them to release His judgments. His judgments are to be desired. The whole world is groaning and travailing as it waits for His judgments, and when they come, the world will learn righteousness. What He is about to do, He will do through His people, and His people will stand as Elijah in the last days. Their words will shut up the heavens or bring rain; they will prophesy earthquakes and famines, and they will come to pass; they will stop famines and earthquakes.

“When they release armies in the heavens, armies will march on the earth. When they hold back armies, there will be peace. They will decide where He shows mercy and where He shows His wrath. They will have this authority because they will love, and those who love will be one with Him. What you will see through that door is to help prepare you for what He is about to do through His people.

“I know authority. I also know the responsibility of authority. Because of the great authority that I was given, I am responsible for what has happened to the earth. Even so, the grace of God began to cover me, and God’s great redemption will soon swallow up my mistake. Peace will be taken from the earth, but you are called to help restore it. Peace prevails in heaven, and you are called to bring heaven to earth. Those who abide in His presence will know peace and will spread peace.

“The earth itself will shake and tremble. Times of trouble greater than have ever been known will begin to move across the earth like great waves of the sea. Even so, those who know Him will not be troubled. They will stand before the raging of the seas and say, ‘Peace, be still’ and the seas will be calm. Even the least of His little ones will be like a great fortress of peace that will stand through all that is coming. His glory will be revealed to His people first and then through them. Even the creation will recognize Him in His people and will obey them as it does Him.

“This is the authority that I had, and it will be given to mankind again. I used my authority to turn Paradise into a wilderness. The Lord will use His authority to turn the wilderness into Paradise again. This is the authority that He is giving to His people. I used mine wrongly and death came. When His authority is used in righteousness, it will release life. Be careful how you use authority. With authority comes responsibility. You, too, can use it wrongly, but you will not do this if you love. As all of heaven knows, ‘Love never fails.”

“What about the earthquakes, famines and even wars that you said we would release on the earth? Won’t this be releasing death?” I asked.

“All the death that is coming upon the world is being allowed to prepare the way for life. Everything that is sown must be reaped, unless those who have sown evil call upon the cross in Spirit and truth. The army of the cross is about to be released, and it will march in the power of the cross, carrying the offer of mercy to all. Those who reject the mercy of God have rejected life.”

I have the impression that taking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil altered the DNA of Adam and all of his future descendants.

 

[Hawkins]

Revelation 22:15 (NIV2011)
Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

The basic establishment is that there are two worlds any time in the past, right now and in the future. Either it is a world lying inside God's realm, or a world outside. Eden is a world inside God's realm where humans can be kept as innocent as possible (to the extent that without knowing good from evil). However outside God's realm (that's where humans are after Adam being kicked out of Eden), it's generally a world without God and ruled by one who's the most powerful and most evil, whose name is Satan. That's how Satan is regarded as the god of our world in terms of his influence. Humans in this world are contaminated even since in wombs.

The hypothesis is, every soul is given the same set of Law forming our basis of conscience and moral code which will be used as a base for our final judgment as well. However humans with this set of code can be hammered by a lot of factors during our early development ever since we are inside our mother's womb. Scientists speculate that we can actually start educating our children during the stage of pregnancy. Parents can talk to the child in womb for him/her to recognize their voice. They can play music to comfort the child...etc.

Satan and his horde start the same kind of education on the spiritual side. We cannot possibly speculate what he and his angels can influence, but it's possible that they start contaminate us from as early as when we are still in wombs, they contribute to our sinful nature and our capability in altering the given set of conscience and moral code. That is to say, we are all given the same set of code to start with but we may not have the same exact set of code at the point when are are born, as it could have already been altered by the contamination.

This contamination subsequently may contribute to our culture and custom (at society level) which in turn may influence back what we will turn to during our childhood development. Further contamination will also go through our parental education (which is already contaminated to begin with).

This process is analogue to a pizza, we are given the same layer of bread. Then toppings are added on top of it to complete the pizza. We are all given the same set of conscience and moral code to begin with, however they are altered through the above process by means of infant education (spiritually in a form that humans cannot speculate), cultural influence and parental education all of which Satan can lay a hand on.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Rick Joyner added some fascinating details to the situation with Adam from a dream that he had.

The Call Rick Joyner

Rick Joyner, The Call:


I have the impression that taking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil altered the DNA of Adam and all of his future descendants.

This is so dark it’s scary.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I have the impression that taking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil altered the DNA of Adam and all of his future descendants.

There’s no evidence for that theory. Sin doesn’t alter our DNA. Knowledge or understanding doesn’t alter our DNA. Takes a lot to alter DNA in reproductive cells.