Adam's Sin

[Dorothy Mae]

Nor did I say that. Please refrain from twisting words, thanks.

You:"We, before coming to God, are natural born enemies of God before coming to the cross: Romans 5:10"

Does the "we" exclude the children or include them? No one is twisting your words. But step up to the plate now and tell us plainly if the little children, before coming to God, are natural born enemies of God before coming to the cross. Yes or no.

Normally, if you speak of mankind, it is assumed to include the little children since they are part of the group mankind. No one is twisting your words if you use words that normally INCLUDE the children.

 

[Swan7]

You:"We, before coming to God, are natural born enemies of God before coming to the cross: Romans 5:10"

Does the "we" exclude the children or include them? No one is twisting your words. But step up to the plate now and tell us plainly if the little children, before coming to God, are natural born enemies of God before coming to the cross. Yes or no.

Normally, if you speak of mankind, it is assumed to include the little children since they are part of the group mankind. No one is twisting your words if you use words that normally INCLUDE the children.

Again, you assumed something I meant. You didn’t even ask. You ignore scripture I cited as well. I’m In Agreement with what He says, not against.

I’m not debating, I’m simply explaining against what you THINK I meant.

Hope that clears it up. Good day.

 

[twin.spin]

1) a cute little innocent baby who has never sinned
A:There is no such thing according to God's Word the Bible:
Genesis 6:5
Ecclesiastes 7:20
Psalm 14:2-4
Matthew 15:19
John 3:6
John 6:63
Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.​

Poor interpretation. The Hebrew is: in sin did my MOTHER conceive me. David’s mother was thought to have committed adultery in his conception.

Whoever thought of that is nonsense. The surrounding verses of Psalm 51 clearly does not suggest that concerning David's mother.

3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight;
so you are right in your verdict
and justified when you judge.
5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
you taught me wisdom in that secret place.​

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2) a cute little innocent baby who has never sinned required baptism.

A: God's Word which is the truth says:
1) Jesus' commanded to make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:19) ... babies are part of "all"​

A baby cannot be a disciple.

I believe what God's Word teaches:

Psalm 51:6

"Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
you taught me wisdom in that secret place."​

2 Timothy 3:15

"how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus."​

If 2 Timothy 3:15 does not make an infant a disciple, then I don't know what else to say.
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2)Baptism is something God does to us:

• Baptism: washes your sins away (Acts 22:16)
• Baptism: forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38)
• Baptism: "The promise (forgiveness of sins) is for -
  • "your children (Acts 2:39)
  • "and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”(Acts 2:39)

Babies cannot sin

there are no baby exemptions in God's Word... none.

Genesis 6:5
Ecclesiastes 7:20
Psalm 14:2-4
Isaiah 53:6
Matthew 15:19
John 3:6

Romans 3:19... so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Romans 6:23 "The wages of sin is death … "
Romans 5:12 "in this way death came to all people, because all sinned"
​

Cemeteries with babies in them validate Romans 3:19, Romans 5:12, Romans 6:23

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Again, you assumed something I meant. You didn’t even ask. You ignore scripture I cited as well. I’m In Agreement with what He says, not against.

I don’t think you are and you won’t explain yourself.

I’m not debating, I’m simply explaining against what you THINK I meant.

You assume something I meant. You didn’t even ask.

Hope that clears it up. Good day.

It does. You have spoken your opinion...end of discussion.

 

[Swan7]

You have spoken your opinion...end of discussion.

I did explain myself. I’m not against what scripture teaches, you think I am for some reason. I cited scripture and that’s it. I’m not against you either, so please do not think I am. We are sisters in Christ after all. This was just a horrible misunderstanding and terrible miscommunication.

We are on the same page, I assure you.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I did explain myself. I’m not against what scripture teaches, you think I am for some reason.

You’re twisting my words, the very thing you falsely accuse me of. And I DID ask you. Does “we” in your statement include children?

I cited scripture and that’s it.

Out of context.

I’m not against you either, so please do not think I am. We are sisters in Christ after all. This was just a horrible misunderstanding and terrible miscommunication.

Well do you want to think about the scripture you quote? Why not answer my question?

We are on the same page, I assure you.

I think we are but I like to think and learn and so ask questions about what I read. Thought maybe you might want to do so too.

And be careful not to accuse people of twisting your words and then twist theirs. As you judge, so you are judged.

 

[Swan7]

Well I did try to reconcile with you @Dorothy Mae but I guess that is between you and God now. I didn’t twist anything you said but rather defended what I meant. So many here assume a lot of the time and at times I catch myself too. We’re not perfect but we get back up and finish the race.

I’m sad this has gone the way it has. May God bless you, sister.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Well I did try to reconcile with you @Dorothy Mae but I guess that is between you and God now.

Where did you do that? You refused to answer a simple question. You falsely accuse me of twisting your words. I don’t see any reconciliation.

I didn’t twist anything you said but rather defended what I meant.

Do you want to know where you twisted my words? I didn’t twist yours. Do you know what twisting words means? If a man says “everyone or “we” in this case, it means all human beings in the group INCLUDING offspring. Why is asking if “we” means kids too twisting??

So many here assume a lot of the time and at times I catch myself too. We’re not perfect but we get back up and finish the race.

Agreed

I’m sad this has gone the way it has. May God bless you, sister.

And He you. But I see that you just seem you want agreement. I’ve learned a lot by thinking and asking questions. Sometimes it’s nicer to find other believers not afraid to think about scripture outside the box.

His best to you!!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I did explain myself. I’m not against what scripture teaches, you think I am for some reason.

This accusation of yours twists my words making them into a false accusation of you. I did nothing of the kind but YOU twist my asking if “we” means babies into something totally different.

I cited scripture and that’s it. I’m not against you either, so please do not think I am.

Never crossed my mind that you’re against me. But it’s difficult when you falsely accuse me.

I am not angry or hurt. We don’t know each other enough for that response. I think long and deep about scripture including asking questions. If you don’t want to answer my straightforward question, I’ll drop it. But the who is spoken of or addressed in scripture is important. Not all “you” words mean the one reading, for example.

 

[fhansen]

When JEsus spoke of the little children, he did not say they were born into a state of sin. He did not say they are alienated from God either. He spoke well of them as little children.

He said a person must be born again or born from above. The little children aren't bad; no one is bad due to the state inherited from Adam; rather we're compromised, lost, wounded, ignorant, in relative darkness compared to the light God wants to give us. We lack the "knowledge of God". We don't even know where we came from, if anywhere, what we're here for, if for anything, and where we're going, if anywhere. And unless we approach God like a child, in simple humility, we will not gain that knowledge, and the faith which is its object, let alone hope in and love for God. Children don't possess this intimate knowledge or relationship either, which is why they inevitably grow up to be sinners too.

 

[Swan7]

Nope, I’m dropping this now because of what scripture says - what God says not to do: 2 Timothy 2:14 this quarrel is bringing no profit, but destruction. I am sorry if you feel that I have accused you, as you say. But I also felt that way with you. That is all, and I really am sorry it’s come down so far as this.

This apology is a peace offering.
May God bless your heart.

 

[RaymondG]

Well, I asked how you deal with it and you told me. I think simply believing the words he said in their obvious meaning is better.

I dismiss any obvious meanings......for only the carnal mind would believe that it can decipher the meanings of these ancient text after a quick glance at the words. Only the carnal mind would raise it's understanding abilities over that of the religious masters, who spent their lives studying scripture. Yeah, they couldn't recognize Jesus in front of them.....but im smarter than they are, my carnal mind tells me.

I think it unwise to listen to the carnal mind...why?

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

"For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;"

Is the other man in the sentence where Jesus refered to Abel also merely spiritual? That is, Zechariah whom they murdered....was he also only a spiritual reference and never a real man who was really murdered? Just wondering.

"And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able."

I would not be so quick to ask for information that I am ready to dismiss as, false, even before hearing it. For when the spirit of truth comes.....if it is reject...it may never reach our shores again...

"57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief."

 

[eleos1954]

This is speaking obviously of adults. Children are not living in the passions of the flesh and neither are babies. They are not carrying out the desires of the body that are listed in the bible. The nature that this speaks of is the character that developes over time as a result of evil choices from the age of awareness of moral law. Babies cannot carry out any sin. This is why Jesus said the kingdom of Heaven is filled with those who are like the children.

John 14:6

New International Version
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Death entered the world though sin ... if babies/children had no sin (of some kind) they wouldn't die.

You are correct babies/children are not aware of their sin until a certain age (only God knows) .. so because they do die sometimes before that time ... that only leaves a sin nature (call it what you want).

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This is why Jesus said the kingdom of Heaven is filled with those who are like the children

Yes ... they are considered innocent and covered by the blood of Jesus ... but that does mean they were void of a sin nature ... from conception.

We inherit Adam’s sinful nature (through his corrupt seed) and are sinful from the moment of conception. This is the truth of the depravity of our nature.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

He said a person must be born again or born from above. The little children aren't bad; no one is bad due to the state inherited from Adam; rather we're compromised, lost, wounded, ignorant, in relative darkness compared to the light God wants to give us. We lack the "knowledge of God". We don't even know where we came from, if anywhere, what we're here for, if for anything, and where we're going, if anywhere. And unless we approach God like a child, in simple humility, we will not gain that knowledge, and the faith which is its object, let alone hope in and love for God. Children don't possess this intimate knowledge or relationship either, which is why they inevitably grow up to be sinners too.

Actually Jesus says their angels have special access to God. Jesus says the kingdom of is of such as the little ones. He didn’t seem to think they were “compromised “
or needing to be born again. He never called any adults to Himself to bless them besides the apostles. Your view doesn’t match Jesus’ view of children.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

John 14:6

New International Version
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Death entered the world though sin ... if babies/children had no sin (of some kind) they wouldn't die.

You are correct babies/children are not aware of their sin until a certain age (only God knows) .. so because they do die sometimes before that time ... that only leaves a sin nature (call it what you want).

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.



Yes ... they are considered innocent and covered by the blood of Jesus ... but that does mean they were void of a sin nature ... from conception.

We inherit Adam’s sinful nature (through his corrupt seed) and are sinful from the moment of conception. This is the truth of the depravity of our nature.

David’s mother sinned at his conception. Sin nature is no where in the Bible. Sinful nature (as a result of choosing sin) is. Sin nature from birth no where. Augustine made it up.

 

[fhansen]

David’s mother sinned at his conception. Sin nature is no where in the Bible. Sinful nature (as a result of choosing sin) is. Sin nature from birth no where. Augustine made it up.

Augustine didn't speak of a sin nature as far as I know; that's a later, Reformed, development. He was concerned with the reason why people sin universally. Sin is an anomaly, unnatural in God's created order. And Romans 5:18-19 continues to affirm that all are affected anyway:
"So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."

 

[throughfierytrial]

Is the guilt of Adam's sin imputed to his offspring (us)? Why or why not?

Yes, it is just...fallen man cannot produce holy children. But, yes it is just as God declares it so.

 

[eleos1954]

David’s mother sinned at his conception. Sin nature is no where in the Bible. Sinful nature (as a result of choosing sin) is. Sin nature from birth no where. Augustine made it up.

So you are saying there is no sin of any kind in the human race ... until a "age of accountability"?

 

[1213]

Is the guilt of Adam's sin imputed to his offspring (us)? Why or why not?

I have understood sin means, to reject God, or to live in separation from God. Adam rejected God and was expelled from God’s place. And because of that, we are born in separation from God, and so we are born in sinful state. And that is how I think “sin is imputed”. Luckily God has prepared a way out of sin.

 

[bling]

I can't tell you exactly how it is, but because of Adam's rebellion against God and his siding with Satan, his guilt is shared by all his descendants. This is because Adam lost the Holy Spirit and his body became mortal. He had the sentence of death in him the moment he disobeyed God's express command. Therefore all his descendants received the same mortal bodies, and so they, including us, are all under the sentence of death. In that way, we share Adam's guilt and condemnation.

It is only through Christ paying the price for our guilt and condemnation that we, through faith in Him can be converted and receive eternal life.

You seem to be saying the tree of life was not needed to keep Adam and Eve alive?
Where does it say they had the indwelling Holy Spirit?
Where does it talk about Adam and Eve losing the Spirit when they sinned?
If Adam and Eve had the indwelling Holy Spirit how did they sin?