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Adam's rib.

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OldWiseGuy

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Probably the same thing you do. Once we get rid of the notion that we are trying to fit the literal story allegorically to evolution, then the allegory we do see is strictly theological. I have no quarrel with seeing the story as reflecting theology on the relation of men and women, the institution of marriage, and even (per Paul and St. John Chrysostom) on the relation of Christ and the Church.

Agreed. We'll not mention evolution again here. Would you share your particular understanding of the Eve/rib thing with me from your own point of view? I have broached this question of women before and have gotten flooded with posts defending womanhood without the question ever being addressed. What is your personal understanding of this subject apart from tradition?

owg
 
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gluadys

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Agreed. We'll not mention evolution again here. Would you share your particular understanding of the Eve/rib thing with me from your own point of view? I have broached this question of women before and have gotten flooded with posts defending womanhood without the question ever being addressed. What is your personal understanding of this subject apart from tradition?

owg

There's a rabbinic interpretation to the effect that Eve was not created from Adam's head, to dominate him, nor from his foot , to be oppressed by him, but from his rib to be his partner and equal, from under his arm, near his heart, to be loved and cherished by him.

As far as the rib in particular goes, I like that. Some other thoughts.

Eve is "flesh of my flesh, bone of my bone" says Adam. Unlike the other creatures created like Adam from dust, Eve is a part of him, of the same human nature as him. So she alone is (to use the KJV term) "meet" for him. This is one place I rather like the older terminology.

She is a "help" meet for him--a phrase that became corrupted into "help-mate", but that is not so wrong either, because she is both a help and a mate. What went wrong in the traditional interpretation of this was to see her as a junior helper, a sort of apprentice working under Adam's direction. But the word "help" used of Eve is the same as the word "help" used of God. It does not imply inferiority in any way, but rather the presence of one who comes to the assistance of one who needs help.

I note too that the creation stories give the same mandate to man and woman--no roles determined by gender. Also, although it is given elsewhere, the command to be fruitful and multiply is not introduced with the institution of marriage. The emphasis is on the husband-wife relationship of mutual help and companionship, not on their potential parenthood.

And most noteworthy, in marriage it is the man who leaves his family to cleave to his wife. This is a remarkable statement given the patriarchal nature of Israelite society.

When we add in the analogy of marriage to the Christ-church relationship, does this not remind us of Christ coming from his Father to seek out his church on earth?

And of course Paul has much more to say on the model Christ and the church provide for husband and wife.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Interesting thoughts, Gluadys. Thanks.

There's a rabbinic interpretation to the effect that Eve was not created from Adam's head, to dominate him, nor from his foot , to be oppressed by him, but from his rib to be his partner and equal, from under his arm, near his heart, to be loved and cherished by him.

Interesting as well is the fact that the rib is the only bone that can be removed from a person that doesn't leave him crippled or disabled. Also when God closed up Adams chest he may have been indicating that although he had many ribs remaining that only one was to become his mate.

As far as the rib in particular goes, I like that. Some other thoughts.

Eve is "flesh of my flesh, bone of my bone" says Adam. Unlike the other creatures created like Adam from dust, Eve is a part of him, of the same human nature as him. So she alone is (to use the KJV term) "meet" for him. This is one place I rather like the older terminology.

You've nailed this one. Eve was indeed made of the same stuff as Adam. This makes her very special, as Adam was special himself. The implications of this are enormous.

She is a "help" meet for him--a phrase that became corrupted into "help-mate", but that is not so wrong either, because she is both a help and a mate. What went wrong in the traditional interpretation of this was to see her as a junior helper, a sort of apprentice working under Adam's direction. But the word "help" used of Eve is the same as the word "help" used of God. It does not imply inferiority in any way, but rather the presence of one who comes to the assistance of one who needs help.

Of course this implies that he will set about to perform or fulfill a task or goal and needs help in accomplishing it. Proverbs 31 is a great example of the results of working together.




I note too that the creation stories give the same mandate to man and woman--no roles determined by gender. Also, although it is given elsewhere, the command to be fruitful and multiply is not introduced with the institution of marriage. The emphasis is on the husband-wife relationship of mutual help and companionship, not on their potential parenthood.

Well, the roles of principle (man) and helper (woman) are plain. Propagating is mandated for both even if stated later.



And most noteworthy, in marriage it is the man who leaves his family to cleave to his wife. This is a remarkable statement given the patriarchal nature of Israelite society.

In the archtypal example of Abraham (God-type) sending his servant (holy spirit-type) to fetch Rebekah (church-type) for his son Isaac (Christ-type) from among their own people (rib-type, or is that a stretch?) the wife has left her home to go to her husband. Of course their son Jacob left his home and 'dwelt in the tents of Laban' while courting Rachel.
So examples of both can be found, although I believe the example of Rebekah is superior.


When we add in the analogy of marriage to the Christ-church relationship, does this not remind us of Christ coming from his Father to seek out his church on earth?

The Father will draw the wife/church to Christ, although Christ has indeed come to earth to redeem his bride from the earth (death).

And of course Paul has much more to say on the model Christ and the church provide for husband and wife.

Boy, does he ever.

owg
 
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OldWiseGuy

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So are you satisfied that accepting evolution as a reality does not interfere with understanding a biblical text either literally or allegorically?

Not entirely. I still believe that the/an alternative belief in evolution 'muddies the water' of spiritual understanding at least to some degree, but to what extent I don't know. There are other more pervasive barriers to understanding, however.

owg
 
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Vance

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Not entirely. I still believe that the/an alternative belief in evolution 'muddies the water' of spiritual understanding at least to some degree, but to what extent I don't know. There are other more pervasive barriers to understanding, however.

owg
But, at the same time, it dramatically clears up the waters regarding the intense conflicts between the evidence from God's Creation itself and the hyper-literal reading of the text which insists upon a young earth and denies God's use of evolution as a natural process.
 
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