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Was Adam a literal man or not?

  • Yes

  • No


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Didaskomenos

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Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
Who was the famous man who said that the Bible teaches us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go?
Galileo. The majority church condemned his views for not reflecting their view of theology. Taking the currently-held majority interpretation of Scripture caused geocentrism to denounce heliocentrism.

BTW, it's still being done today: http://www.geocentricbible.com/

Then cf. http://hypertextbook.com/eworld/geocentric.shtml to underscore the need to recognize literary genre and style in interpreting the Bible.
 
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Didaskomenos

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On the person of Adam, the jury's still out for me. I tend to think he was not one individual. He may indeed be representative of a particular stage of human development upon which humanity first began to function with a God-consciousness.
 
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oworm

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Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
Hark! Do I hear the skirl of the bagpipes of a True Scotsman approaching?
Ok my bagpipes are tuned now and I think I have something cohesive together.



Now Im no scientist and couldn’t even begin to enter into an academic debate about evolution.



I have tried to come up with something new to bring to this question of whether Adam was a literal being but I think all the ground has been covered and all the circles have been run around so I will suffice with a couple of questions based on scripture:



1. Why does the apostle Paul, in his discourse with the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers in ACTS 17:26 say with reference to Gods creation of man “From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth” ?



2. Why does Paul say in ROMANS: 5:12 “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man ?



3. ROMANS 5: 15; For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,



4.ROMANS 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.



5. Why is it that Abel is commended for his righteousness? Surely if Adam didn’t exist then Abel didn’t either seeing as he was a son of Adam?



HEBREWS 11:4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.







Now, go back to point number one and get a bible and read the whole thing in context.



Paul is wandering through Athens and sees the statue to the unknown God. He has previously been discoursing with the philosophers and stoics who invite him to speak from the Areopagus . this is Paul’s great opportunity to share the truth of God and the message of His gospel to these highly intellectual men. Don’t forget that Paul too is an intellectual who was trained under the guidance of Gamaliel. Hes no slouch in the brain department !! He begins to lay out the truth of God to these men from creation to redemption to coming judgement.



Did Paul lie when he made the statement “from one man he made every nation of men”? Surely not!! Im inclined to think his hearers would have taken him to task or asked him to be more specific if he made that statement just for the sake of giving them a reference point.



If you can conclude that Adam was not a literal being then you would have to call into question all references to him from the new testament writers as being the “one man” or representative of sin coming into the world. Or, if all these writers were part of the great conspiracy of just “making a theological point” then they must have collectively thought all the forthcoming saints would be thick and not question their claims.

The only solution then would be to take our bibles and use them to kindle fires because if the wool is being pulled over our eyes over this one issue then how can we be sure the rest of it is reliable?
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Oworm - good points all.

I think, however, that there are a few points that bear examination.

If Adam is not literal, did Paul lie? No. A few points:

1. I'm quite prepared to accept that Paul considered Adam to be literal. He would have had no real reason to suppose otherwise. Consequently he is not lying but saying what he believes to be true

2. The question we must ask is - 'does Paul's theology here collapse if Adam is not literal?' It is my contention that it does not.

It seems to me that the thrust of Paul's argument is that we are all the people of the same God, indeed His offspring. I'm far from convinced that the literality of Adam is essential here; it certainly illustrates the point, but so does common ancestry, as it happens. One of evolution's contributions to humanity (contra Morris, Hovind et al.) is the recognition that we are one race, the human race, of a common origin. Paul, in his context, talks about us as "sons of Adam". We in a scientific context might demonstrate it differently, but the point is the same.

Moving on to Romans, Paul is explaining the work of Christ by comparing Christ as a type with Adam as a type. The literal existence of the type is neither here nor there; it is a matter of historical record that Christ was literally real; equally I would contest it is a matter of historical record that Adam was not. No matter; Paul uses the OT story to explain how the work of Christ can be effective for all people. Seeing Adam as a type - indeed, the nearest Adam comes to literality is when I look in a mirror - solves a theological problem, which is the injustice of God condemning me for what an ancestor did. No, He condemns me because of what I do. In this way, I am Adam. I sin, and my sin affects other people, causing both suffering and further sin.

This is how I see it - suppose I launch a physical assault on someone. The consequences are:

(1) immediate suffering of another person
(2) that person being likely tempted into sinning against me by launching an attack in retaliation.
(3) breaking of relationship - must have been bad anyway, but now it's worse.

It goes further - because of the widespread sinfulness of human institutions, I can hardly buy clothing or coffee without participating in the sinful actions of the corporations that control markets in these items. I am forced into the web of sin.

It is methinks in this way that the sin of one causes condemnation for another - we are a race of Adams. screwing each other up.

This is the mercy of God - just as our sin screws up other people, Jesus' work redeems other people. It's only a tiny part of a model of atonement, but it is the one Paul's referring to here. Not only a technical change in status in God's Bad Books, but also there is the intention that with the Holy Spirit living in us bringing in the Kingdom of God in our actions, we can lessen the "web of sin" I describe above, and be less contributors to it through refraining from sinful actions that damage others.

Whew - what a sermon!

If Paul was wrong about the historicity of Adam I don't think it means our Bibles are valueless except for as far as they burn; the theological message (which I have expounded above) is untouched. Really, Paul's being wrong about this point is of no more import than the writer of Joshua thinking that the sun went round the earth.
 
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Captain_Jack_Sparrow

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lovegod_will said:
i apoligise for my lack of scietific knowledge, one thing however i do know is that Carbon dating is imensely flawed, and we cannot relie on it to give us sound and accuarte readings of the earths age.

Also did God create out of nothing or out of something in your opoion?


LOL LOL LOL

Let's examine your statement (a classic example of why Creationists are ridiculed).

"you apologise for your lack of scientific knowledge" - fair enough

"I do know carbon dating is flawed" - REALLY! - well of course you have studied it in a scientific manner - Oh but wait - you have a lack of scientific knowledge - So how can you make this blanket statement? Isn't that illogical? But that doesn't stop you making statements when you have no knowledge about the subject at hand.

Did your pastor come up with this gem last Sunday?

Tell me - do you not see the almost laughable irony in your statement?

Of course you end by making a completely idiotic statement showing that your first statement was on the money.

What part of carbon dating NOT having anything to do with dating the Earth do you not get????

Comprende?

Carbon dating is only used on biological material from within the last 50,000 years or so.

Congratulations on maintaining a stereotype!


Darn - I just noticed you were English too. Come on man - leave this Creationist claptrap for the States.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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oworm said:
Ok my bagpipes are tuned now and I think I have something cohesive together.



Now Im no scientist and couldn’t even begin to enter into an academic debate about evolution.



I have tried to come up with something new to bring to this question of whether Adam was a literal being but I think all the ground has been covered and all the circles have been run around so I will suffice with a couple of questions based on scripture:



1. Why does the apostle Paul, in his discourse with the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers in ACTS 17:26 say with reference to Gods creation of man “From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth” ?



2. Why does Paul say in ROMANS: 5:12 “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man ?



3. ROMANS 5: 15; For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,



4.ROMANS 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.



5. Why is it that Abel is commended for his righteousness? Surely if Adam didn’t exist then Abel didn’t either seeing as he was a son of Adam?



HEBREWS 11:4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.







Now, go back to point number one and get a bible and read the whole thing in context.



Paul is wandering through Athens and sees the statue to the unknown God. He has previously been discoursing with the philosophers and stoics who invite him to speak from the Areopagus . this is Paul’s great opportunity to share the truth of God and the message of His gospel to these highly intellectual men. Don’t forget that Paul too is an intellectual who was trained under the guidance of Gamaliel. Hes no slouch in the brain department !! He begins to lay out the truth of God to these men from creation to redemption to coming judgement.



Did Paul lie when he made the statement “from one man he made every nation of men”? Surely not!! Im inclined to think his hearers would have taken him to task or asked him to be more specific if he made that statement just for the sake of giving them a reference point.



If you can conclude that Adam was not a literal being then you would have to call into question all references to him from the new testament writers as being the “one man” or representative of sin coming into the world. Or, if all these writers were part of the great conspiracy of just “making a theological point” then they must have collectively thought all the forthcoming saints would be thick and not question their claims.

The only solution then would be to take our bibles and use them to kindle fires because if the wool is being pulled over our eyes over this one issue then how can we be sure the rest of it is reliable?




AFAIK the most common way for conservatives with a high view of Scripture to solve the problem of dating the earth/universe and still understand Genesis as teaching a historical and (as you put it) literal Adam is to see that Gen 1 and Gen 2-6 are talking about two different things with the same word 'adam'.

Gen1 is discussing the general creation of humankind. adam as generic man.
Gen2 ff is discussing a particular man with the name Adam.
this is the two adams, or old earth/young adam view.
see: http://www.orisol.com/orisol.html for a book on the topic.

you need to remember that even if the Scriptures are inerrant, our interpretations will never be so.
 
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oworm

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Captain_Jack_Sparrow said:
LOL LOL LOL

Let's examine your statement (a classic example of why Creationists are ridiculed).

"you apologise for your lack of scientific knowledge" - fair enough

"I do know carbon dating is flawed" - REALLY! - well of course you have studied it in a scientific manner - Oh but wait - you have a lack of scientific knowledge - So how can you make this blanket statement? Isn't that illogical? But that doesn't stop you making statements when you have no knowledge about the subject at hand.

Did your pastor come up with this gem last Sunday?

Tell me - do you not see the almost laughable irony in your statement?

Of course you end by making a completely idiotic statement showing that your first statement was on the money.

What part of carbon dating NOT having anything to do with dating the Earth do you not get????

Comprende?

Carbon dating is only used on biological material from within the last 50,000 years or so.

Congratulations on maintaining a stereotype!


Darn - I just noticed you were English too. Come on man - leave this Creationist claptrap for the States.
So nice of you to point this out publicly and in such a loving christian manner
 
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Captain_Jack_Sparrow

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That is fine - check things out for yourself. What people should do on these issues is learn themselves.

I'm sorry I did jump on you a little hard but it is difficult to stand pat when someone makes a statement based upon their own admitted ignorance of the subject.
 
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Captain_Jack_Sparrow

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oworm said:
So nice of you to point this out publicly and in such a loving christian manner


Your welcome - I thought the prose was poetic myself.

I know you are being sarcastic and I admitted later I jumped upon him a little hard but it is just seeing the sterotype creationist 'I don't know a thing about the subject but here is the way it is because my pastor told me so argument.'

By the way AFAIK means 'as far as I know'.
 
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Late_Cretaceous

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HELLO LOOK AT THE BOTTOM OF EACH AND EVERYO ONE OF MY POSTS FOR THE SOURCE.

According to ReligionToday (Dec. 29, 1999), out of 103 clergy polled in Britain (including Roman Catholic priests, Anglican bishops and Protestant ministers); 97% do not believe in a literal six day creation, and 80% acknowledge that Adam and Eve were not actual people.
 
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lovegod_will

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Late_Cretaceous said:
According to ReligionToday (Dec. 29, 1999), out of 103 clergy polled in Britain (including Roman Catholic priests, Anglican bishops and Protestant ministers); 97% do not believe in a literal six day creation, and 80% acknowledge that Adam and Eve were not actual people.
And what? people get in wrong, im not saying we're right, or ur wrong, but to be fair humans are infallible and the church gets it wrong,alot.
 
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IHaveQuestions

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lovegod_will said:
And what? people get in wrong, im not saying we're right, or ur wrong, but to be fair humans are infallible and the church gets it wrong,alot.
At the end of the day we do not know (and will not know in thsi life) who is right and who is wrong.

Does it really matter at the end of the day who is right and who is wrong anyway?
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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lovegod_will said:
sorry i meant fallible, not infallible, ooops.soz.

The poll only questioned 103 clergy, there are probally more than that in my Home town. The poll is incredibly decepctive, i find it difficult to believe that it is a fair demographic of uor wonderful nation.
I'd say it is. I've never met a creationist clergyman.
 
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