Adam, Eve, and Evolution

[AV1611VET]

Nah, we're all doomed anyway. 4th chapter of Jude: "Neither shalt thou believe in evolution, else you'll go to hell and .be roasted over a slow fire and basted with soy sauce and green onions for all eternity. Selah"

Do you feel it's necessary to use a serious discussion on theology as a springboard for these kinds of remarks?

The "1000 days" doesn't signify.

Okay then if we take it as a literal 24-hour day?

The point is that it's super-dumb to hold God to human limitations.

Have you ever noticed that those who think like this always use that passage to say a day could be more than a 24-hour period?

They never use it to say it could be less than a 24-hour period as well.

I mean ... if one day is a thousand years, can one day be one second?

Since academia can't cram their 14 billion years into 6 days, they use that passage to try and balloon 6 days into 14 billion years.

Then they have a cow when others won't accept their interpretation.

 

[AV1611VET]

Science looks,and says "it looks like it took a few zillions years". The Christian says "OK, "For a thousand years in His sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." Times limits us, not God.

And they're both wrong, aren't they?

Better put all that sciency stuff that your life and livelihood depend on down and move into a cave, then.

That's not gonna happen.

I hold science up to a higher standard than atheists can.

Science is a gift from God.

But many people use it to bash the Bible.

And THAT'S when it can take a hike.

Your 'puter should be the first thing to go flying out the window, followed closely by any other electronic stuff.

Nope.

I have enough wisdom to put science in its place.

In fact, here are my standards:

1. Bible says x, Science says x = go with x
2. Bible says x, Science says y = go with x
3. Bible says x, Science says ø = go with x
4. Bible says ø, Science says x = go with x
5. Bible says ø, Science says ø = free to speculate on your own

Prime Directive: Under no circumstances whatsoever is the Bible to be contradicted.

Notice how well science and Scripture fit?

Like a hand in a glove.

Spare us the hypocritical science bashing,

Sure.

Let's not bash science then.

Science is a gift to us from God.

And in another thread, I even said science was "Christian."

... you depend on it being true just as much as anyone else.

That's right.

Science has made our lives a lot easier.

Science has found oil, put men on the moon and brought them back, and has made huge strides in medicine.

Yep, it was teaching about the Creation Week that caused Cornelius and his household to turn to Christ.

Right.

Ya know, I just read over all the Creeds again, and I noticed there's nothing at all about how long it took God to create the universe.

Then the creeds can take a hike.

God -- (not creeds) -- said what He did, when He did it, where He did it, how He did it, what order He did it in, how long it took Him to do it, why it took Him that long, and even who the eyewitnesses were -- (three of them by name).

It's almost like that isn't a basic Christian teaching! Hmmmmm...

It's literal Christian teaching.

Over a six-day period, and using a series of one miracle after another (i.e., not science or nature), God created the universe, raising the level of mass/energy in the universe from zero to what it is today.

Nice and neat and quick.

 

[Fervent]

Old man Ike Newton seems to have done pretty well in both hi pusuit of cience and his Christian convictions although his eschatology was pretty much wack).

My point isn't that people of faith can't do science and maintain their faith, but that reading and interpreting the Bible is a separate discipline from empirical sciences. We shouldn't be using science to interpret the Bible, or the Bible to interpret science.

 

[Fervent]

And God's Word is pretty clear in its statement about the 7 day creation week of Gen 2:2-3 being the same as the week at Sinai in Ex 20:8-11... for those interested in exegesis and context when rendering the meaning of the text. It is very obvious that neither Moses nor the newly freed slaves gathered at Sinai in Exodus 20 - were "darwinists"

If we took our science cues from a literal understanding of the Bible, we would believe the world is flat, under a dome, with waters above and below. We would also believe in ancient Greek scientific ideas like the eyes generating light not simply being receptors. So simply because Moses and others who were involved in the writing of the Bible believed certain things to be true, doesn't oblige us to believe those things. But this is a hermeneutical question, and one not likely to be bridged between those who want to cling to a half-literalist understanding of the Bible and those who are willing to allow for human ignorance to have played a part in the Biblical authors understanding of science.

 

[AV1611VET]

So simply because Moses and others who were involved in the writing of the Bible believed certain things to be true, doesn't oblige us to believe those things.

If they wrote it under inspiration of the Holy Ghost, then we are obligated to believe it.

After all, we are certainly going to be judged by It.

If the human authors of the Bible wrote something that couldn't possibly be scientifically true -- (such as Jesus walking on water) -- then the next step would be to consider it a miracle.

Then the next step would be to consider it poetry, a metaphor, or other such non-literal fact.

Anything other than that -- (such as evolution or deep time) -- would not have been written down.

In short, where the Bible disagrees with science, science is wrong.

 

[Fervent]

If they wrote it under inspiration of the Holy Ghost, then we are obligated to believe it.

Where is what writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit entails spelled out?

After all, we are certainly going to be judged by It.

If the human authors of the Bible wrote something that couldn't possibly be scientifically true -- (such as Jesus walking on water) -- then the next step would be to consider it a miracle.

The problem isn't individual case occurences of miracles, but things that must perpetually be true that modern science shows are not true. The example of the ancient theory of the eyes being the source of light which Jesus affirms as being true being one example, which most literalists now gloss over by making the passages metaphorical. If we take the science of the Bible literally, evolution is small potatoes compared to the ANE cosmology that is peppered throughout Scripture.

Then the next step would be to consider it poetry, a metaphor, or other such non-literal fact.

So play interpretive games massaging the text to something acceptable. which is pretty intellectually dishonest.

Anything other than that -- (such as evolution or deep time) -- would not have been written down.

In short, where the Bible disagrees with science, science is wrong.

So then you believe that the Earth is a flat plane under a dome with holes in it, with waters above and waters below(with the waters below containing a dragon)? And that light is produced by the eyes?

 

[AV1611VET]

So then you believe that the Earth is a flat plane under a dome with holes in it,

I do not.

You cannot show me that in Scripture.

... with waters above and waters below ...

I do believe this.

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

The question is -- (or should be) -- where did the waters above the firmament go?

I believe they went into space, to be brought back later in Noah's time.

They may have been deposited on the moon (lunar maria), or Mars (canals), or anywhere else God choose.

(with the waters below containing a dragon)?

I have a thread on cryptids in the Bible that are academic nightmares.

Such as dragons, satyrs, whale fish, and unicorns.

All animals that were real.

And that light is produced by the eyes?

That I don't believe.

At least, not the electromagnetic type of light.

 

[Fervent]

I do not.

You cannot show me that in Scripture.

Considering you're willing to play games and turn what isn't purely figurative language into figurative language, probably not. But it's apparent to anyone who studies ANE cosmology alongside the Bible that numerous verses in the Bible are describing a flat Earth under a dome just as all of the ANE neighbors believed.

I do believe this.

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

The question is -- (or should be) -- where did the waters above the firmament go?

I believe they went into space, to be brought back later in Noah's time.

They may have been deposited on the moon (lunar maria), or Mars (canals), or anywhere else God choose.

Ok?

I have a thread on cryptids in the Bible that are academic nightmares.

Such as dragons, satyrs, whale fish, and unicorns.

Cool

All animals that were real.



That I don't believe.

At least, not the electromagnetic type of light.

Yet another example of ancient science being seen in the Bible that becomes figurative in the hands of the literalist, even though there is little reason from the text itself to take it as figurative and lots of reasons to take it as being stated factually.

 

[Job 33:6]

Sadly, no. The response of many Flatties is that no, the Bible doesn't explicitly say that the earth is flat, but that its use of language that implies a flat earth must be taken as literally true. As you've probably noted, they defend their ill-founded beliefs with a zealot's passion. They see themselves as manning the ramparts to defy the hordes of satan, whose only goal is to deceive people into the false belief that the world is round and orbits ther sun. Why satan would benefit by such a deception is left unexplored, apparent that satan benefits from deceiving anyone about anything, no matter what.

And yeah, they make Christians look like a bunch of illiterate half-wits, but yoiu'll never get them to see that, or at least I never have. I wish you better success.

The Bible does describe earth as flat. The book of Job describes it as pressed like a clay seal, and Isiah refers to it as the circle of the earth (the horizon).

13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
Job‬ ‭38:13‭-‬14‬

And like a garment which you could grab its edges and shake it like a dusty carpet. Shaking the wicked out of it. ‭

The solution to debating flat earthers isn't to argue that the Bible teaches modern science. Rather the solution is to inform flat earthers that the Bible was written a long time ago, before the spherical shape of earth was discovered. And that the Bible isn't a science textbook.

Just like how you wouldn't expect the Bible to talk about social media or the Internet. Or artificial intelligence.

The Bible was written before these things were discovered. And so the Bible will describe things that are essentially pre scientific because of the age in which it's inspired authors lived.

 

[AV1611VET]

The Bible was written before these things were discovered. And so the Bible will describe things that are essentially pre scientific because of the age in which it's inspired authors lived.

The late Henry Morris, in his Defender's Study Bible, mentions that Job speaks of electronic communications.

Job 38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?

Indeed, the Bible is just as up-to-date today as It was yesterday.

That's what It means, when It says:

Hebrews 4:12a For the word of God is quick,

 

[BNR32FAN]

Sure, see Is a yom/day always = 24 hours? and follow up there

Actually Yom is always used in reference to a 24 hour day or daytime as opposed to nighttime. Yom is never actually used in reference to an unspecified amount of time like an age or an era. The Hebrew word that is used in reference to an unspecified time like an age or an era that is often translated as “in the day” is Beyovm. Unfortunately Strong’s Concordance didn’t catch this detail and these words should have different Strong’s Concordance reference numbers. You can check the validity of this by doing a Bible search for the word day then checking the verses on biblehub.com. Biblehub will show which verses use Yom and which verses use Beyovm.

 

[Halbhh]

It would make things even worse for evolutionists.

If the creation events in Genesis 1 were done within six 1000 year days:

1. That doesn't explain the billions of years that evolutionists cram into Earth's history
2. How did grasses, trees, shrubs, and other gymnosperms survive 1000 years without sunlight?

Ah!

First, let's just really listen together to get the entire full meaning of that wonderful 2 verses (or more is better perhaps) and then let's consider it:

Let's try that full listening (more full reading and listening both) I'm so often begging everyone to do more of --

3 Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief....

!

---------------
So helpful right?


Don't you agree? This is such a profoundly helpful passage for us as believers, about waiting for His return!


Perhaps I should just stop here. You can respond and tell me what you think.


What does this say about how time is for God? E.g -- does this say to us that for God that only exactly 1000 Earth years precisely is always precisely 1 day for Him and He's unable to change that?

Or what does it mean about time for God?

I want to hear your thoughts when you are ready, and I probably won't be back here quickly, so take your time, and respond when you are ready, even a day or 10 from now if you like, because 10 days are only like a few seconds in a way.................



.......




And there's more, and it came to me I really need all of this chapter:

"...The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ah!

First, let's just really listen together to get the entire full meaning of that wonderful 2 verses (or more is better perhaps) and then let's consider it:

Let's try that full listening (more full reading and listening both) I'm so often begging everyone to do more of --

3 Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief....

!

---------------
So helpful right?


Don't you agree? This is such a profoundly helpful passage for us as believers, about waiting for His return!


Perhaps I should just stop here. You can respond and tell me what you think.


What does this say about how time is for God? E.g -- does this say to us that for God that only exactly 1000 Earth years precisely is always precisely 1 day for Him and He's unable to change that?

Or what does it mean about time for God?

I want to hear your thoughts when you are ready, and I probably won't be back here quickly, so take your time, and respond when you are ready, even a day or 10 from now if you like, because 10 days are only like a few seconds in a way.................



.......




And there's more, and it came to me I really need all of this chapter:

"...The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

In Matthew 19:4 Jesus said man & woman were created in the beginning. If you count the 6 days of creation as 6,000 years that actually puts the creation of man & woman in the middle of the timeline, not the beginning.

 

[Halbhh]

In Matthew 19:4 Jesus said man & woman were created in the beginning. If you count the 6 days of creation as 6,000 years that actually puts the creation of man & woman in the middle of the timeline, not the beginning.

Yes, that is an aspect (closely related) to what the post I was responding to asked about. All of those kinds of questions that arise from any interpretation.... (yours, mine, anyone's; we all know we are right, etc.)

The real challenge to us is whether we can just truly listen to all the full chapter, trusting that God knows more than we do and really listen and hear. This helps me so much! I'm only a mortal person. So, I want to listen to God's words, not just hearing in my head my own theories or anyone else's.

I want to truly listen. So, I have to silence all the interpretations, viewpoints, debates, doctrines even, and listen to God's words, not men's.... (we can trust He knows and we can learn as we are ready...)

I offered the entire chapter above, on the hope that some will listen.

In listening, it's not about which of us are right about whatever, it's about listening to God and hearing his words with 'ears that hear' as Christ encouraged us.

(so that instead of a better theory about timelines (which has no ultimate real benefit...), we can hear what we need to hear today for our souls! -- because we all need God's words to help us in life here, the actual messages, the intended main lessons)

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, that is an aspect (closely related) to what the post I was responding to asked about. All of those kinds of questions that arise from any interpretation.... (yours, mine, anyone's; we all know we are right, etc.)

The real challenge to us is whether we can just truly listen to all the full chapter, trusting that God knows more than we do and really listen and hear. This helps me so much! I'm only a mortal person. So, I want to listen to God's words, not just hearing in my head my own theories or anyone else's.

I want to truly listen. So, I have to silence all the interpretations, viewpoints, debates, doctrines even, and listen to God's words, not men's.... (we can trust He knows and we can learn as we are ready...)

I offered the entire chapter above, on the hope that some will listen.

In listening, it's not about which of us are right about whatever, it's about listening to God and hearing his words with 'ears that hear' as Christ encouraged us.

(so that instead of a better theory about timelines (which has no ultimate real benefit...), we can hear what we need to hear today for our souls! -- because we all need God's words to help us in life here, the actual messages, the intended main lessons)

I agree and the context that the verse is being used is not referring to creation but the slowness of God’s return. Some people read that passage and see a day is like a thousand years but the verse also says a thousand years is like a day. This is alluding to God’s omnipresence not how long each day of creation took. Not to mention that the word Hos is used meaning “as” or “like” which is not present in the Genesis creation days.

 

[AV1611VET]

Don't you agree? This is such a profoundly helpful passage for us as believers, about waiting for His return!

Perhaps I should just stop here. You can respond and tell me what you think.

What does His return have to do with the Creation Week?

 

[BNR32FAN]

2 Peter 3:8, Psalm 90:4

Net effect, God doesn't reckon time as we do.,

I know, that "doesn't count", right?

Cool, tell us why it doesn't count.

2 Peter 3:8 says a day is “like” (Hos) a thousand years and a thousand years is “like” (Hos) a day. This statement is made in reference to God’s slowness about His return, not creation. It doesn’t say that a day is a thousand years or a thousand years is a day and the creation account in Genesis and Exodus 20:11 don’t say that the heavens and the earth were created “like” or “as” (Hos) 6 days. Genesis 1:1 says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. In Matthew 19:4 Jesus says God made man and woman in the beginning. If you put the creation of man at 6,000 years that puts man’s creation right in the middle of the timeline, not the beginning, and if you follow along with the theory of evolution that puts man at the last 0.0075% of the timeline which is at the very very end. Since evolutionists claim that the earth is 4 billion years old and man has existed for 300,000 years that means that man’s existence has only been 0.0075% of the creation of the world. So no matter if you believe the world took 6,000 years or 4 billion years neither of these put man’s creation at the beginning. Not only that Paul said in Romans 5 that death came into the world thru Adam’s transgression. According to the theory of evolution death came into the world millions of years before Adam was created. Evolution is not biblical.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Nah, we're all doomed anyway. 4th chapter of Jude: "Neither shalt thou believe in evolution, else you'll go to hell and .be roasted over a slow fire and basted with soy sauce and green onions for all eternity. Selah"

This kind of thinking is a result of not caring about what is true or not, it’s equivalent to simply replying “whatever, who cares”.

 

[BNR32FAN]

He made them in the last 15 minutes of the 1000 years. Or the 100,000,000 years. GOD ISNT BOUND BY TIME! Y'all have a kinda pathetic view of God, looks like. We can imaghine Him doing something in a week (that's why it was written that way) but as you can see how we act if we try to comprehand a God to whom "... a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." Oh no, that can't be right! Right?

The Bible says the heavens and the earth and man were created in the beginning. Your explanation puts man’s creation at the end of the time line, not the beginning.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you feel it's necessary to use a serious discussion on theology as a springboard for these kinds of remarks?



Okay then if we take it as a literal 24-hour day?



Have you ever noticed that those who think like this always use that passage to say a day could be more than a 24-hour period?

They never use it to say it could be less than a 24-hour period as well.

I mean ... if one day is a thousand years, can one day be one second?

Since academia can't cram their 14 billion years into 6 days, they use that passage to try and balloon 6 days into 14 billion years.

Then they have a cow when others won't accept their interpretation.

And it’s not as if it’s only stated once or twice but several times in different books and it says man was created in the beginning, not the middle, and not the end.