Adam, Eve, and Evolution

[Diamond72]

That's the worst definition of "virtual world" I've yet to see.

The Bible does state that God created all things. In the book of Genesis, it is mentioned multiple times that God created everything that exists. Does God take responsibility for allowing or permitting evil to exist as part of a larger plan or for the sake of free will and moral development?

How do we know the world is real compared to a simulated world? You are free to define anything any way you want. I understand your theory is that God created a world with the appearance of time. Would that not imply that to some degree the world we live in is virtual if things are different from the way they appear to be?

 

[tonychanyt]

The Bible does state that God created all things. In the book of Genesis, it is mentioned multiple times that God created everything that exists. Does God take responsibility for allowing or permitting evil to exist as part of a larger plan or for the sake of free will and moral development?

Check out The changing role of satan [lowercase] and follow up there

 

[Diamond72]

So since God is all-powerful too, do we live in the World Gym?

There is a LOT God cannot do. He cannot lie, cheat, steal, be unfaithful. The list goes on. A just God cannot be unjust. We see this in the precision of the universe we live in. We are a finite dichotomy. God is an infinite singularity.

In the context of black holes, the term "singularity" refers to the hypothetical point of infinite density at the center of a black hole. We know in the beginning God said: "Let there be light".

The Hasidic Rabbi talk about the concept of sparks of creation. It is believed that the shattered vessels of divine light resulted in the scattering of these sparks throughout the material world.

The event horizon separated the light from the darkness. On earth when the Sun is below the horizon, it is obscured from view, and we experience darkness or night. As the Earth rotates, the Sun eventually rises above the horizon, and daylight begins.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If God knows everything ahead of time, then we live in a virtual world. Welcome to the matrix.

Our names were written in the book of life before anything was created. How could He write your name in the book of life thousands of years before you were born if He couldn’t see the future?

 

[AV1611VET]

I understand your theory is that God created a world with the appearance of time.

You understand incorrectly.

I said God created the world with age embedded into it.

Not time -- age.

 

[Diamond72]

How could He write your name in the book of life thousands of years before you were born if He couldn’t see the future?

There are many scriptures that talks about God's plans for us. I think a lot of this has to do with DNA.

We then have the age old debate on heredity vs environment. Growing up I felt like I was a round peg that they were trying to force into a square hole. We have gifts, talents, and abilities given to us at conception that we need to use and develop in a way that brings praise, honor, and glory to God.

Then, of course, time does not exist for God. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He declares the end from the beginning. He watches over his word to fulfill what He says He is going to do.

Isaiah 46:10 I declare the end from the beginning, and ancient times from what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and all My good pleasure I will accomplish.......Truly I have spoken, and truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, and I will surely do it.…

Acts 5:39
But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop them. You may even find yourselves fighting against God."

 

[Diamond72]

I said God created the world with age embedded into it.

So you believe the Universe appears to be 14 billion years old.

 

[AV1611VET]

So you believe the Universe appears to be 14 billion years old.

I believe the universe is as old as God willed it to be.

No older, no younger.

If it's 13.7 billion years old, it's 13.7 billion years old.

But, however old it is, it has only been in existence since 4004 BC.

IN YOUR OPINION, did God create the universe in 13,700,000,000 BC?

 

[BNR32FAN]

So you believe the Universe appears to be 14 billion years old.

Scientists say the universe is 13 billion years old but we can see stars 46 billion light years away. How does that happen? If the universe is 13 billion years old the light from stars 46 billion light years away shouldn’t have reached us yet.

 

[Job 33:6]

From the scientific perspective in terms of space-time, God created the earth with evolutionary events, including dinosaurs, Neanderthals, etc. embedded in it.

Neanderthals belong to the species of Homo sapiens neanderthalensis. Today's humans belong to Homo sapiens sapiens. Both groups are humans (Homo sapiens). Both have 46 chromosomes though there is some uncertainty about that. Neanderthals existed only in space-time and not in witnessed-time, as such, they never received a breath of God in their spirits. They would not be judged to go to heaven or hell.

From the biblical point of view, God created Adam and Eve in real-time (or witnessed-time) history as described in Genesis.
Acts 17:26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.

In terms of first-order logic, both perspectives are true: witnessed-time and space-time.

I'd recommend a non-concordist approach:

 

[tonychanyt]

I'd recommend a non-concordist approach:

Thanks for the link. Can you provide some relevant highlights from the link?

 

[Diamond72]

How does that happen?

The expanding universe is faster than the speed of light.

 

[Diamond72]

IN YOUR OPINION, did God create the universe in 13,700,000,000 BC?

In a dream God showed me that the universe is expanding and someday it will all come back together again. I understand that the age of the universe is established based on the speed light travels. Whatever age they come up with is fine with me because I do not care how old they say it is.

In the same way people are drifting apart from each other, even families. But He will bring us all back together again. He wants us to be united in HIm, not apart from Him.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The testimony of Scripture says that in the beginning God created all things, and that all of us are descended from two people: Adam and Eve.
The testimony of Creation says that life has been evolving on this planet for the last several billion years.

There are basically three positions a person can therefore take:

1) Accept the testimony of Scripture and deny the testimony of Creation.
2) Accept the testimony of Creation and deny the testimony of Scripture.
3) Accept both the testimony of Scripture and Creation.

Christians can either embrace positions 1 or 3. Christians who take either of these positions come in a lot of different shapes and varieties.

I take position 3, and do so as a Theistic Evolutionist/Evolutionary Creationist. I consider these two terms mutually interchangeable. I don't make a big to-do about how to synethesize the two testimonies, as I think doing so requires too much speculation. I simply accept that both are true. I expect that I may never understand everything fully until all is said and done and I stand before the Lord in Glory.

One of the things I have valued a great deal from the Lutheran tradition is the ability to accept that I don't know or understand everything, or how everything works together. Lutheranism thrives in paradox, the most obvious being the Crux Theologorum (The Theologian's Cross aka Burden), which can be posed as the question in Latin, Cur alii, alii non?, "Why some and not others?" In other words, why do some believe and not others? Calvinists and Arminians answer this in different ways, but both attempt to give a reasonable answer. Lutherans say, instead, we don't know. But I don't want to get deep into that particular paradox. The point is that Lutheranism thrives in paradox, we note, for example that Adam was created sinless, and yet Adam sinned by disobeying God's commandment to not eat from the tree. We note the historic theological paradoxes of the Christian faith: God who cannot die, died, God who cannot suffer, suffered; because Jesus Christ who is true God-and-man suffered and died on the cross. We cannot, for example, say "only the humanity suffered", that divides Jesus, Jesus suffered and that means God suffered, and yet God cannot suffer.

So when I see what the Scriptures say, and when I see what is observed in nature I do not know how both of these statements are true:

1) Death came through Adam to the whole world and
2) We witness death of animals and plants throughout the entire fossil record.

65 million years before Adam and Eve an asteroid collided with the earth and wiped out millions of species, including all of the non-avian dinosaurs.

And yet, nevertheless, death came to all creation because of Adam's sinful disobedience. The dinosaurs died out because creation was made subject to sin and death because of what Adam did. Even though millions of years transpired between the K-T Extinction event and the evolution of Homo sapiens. When God made human beings on the sixth day of creation.

How that makes sense, how that works I don't know. And that's okay. Let God be true and every man a liar. It is simultaneously true that the word of the Lord endures forever, and the heavens declare the glory of God.

Scripture is true.
Creation is true.
Glory to God alone.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[AV1611VET]

The testimony of Creation says that life has been evolving on this planet for the last several billion years.
...
3) Accept both the testimony of Scripture and Creation.
...
I take position 3,

1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the "testimony of Creation" say Adam & Eve lived millions of years apart?

You know? y-Adam and mtDNA Eve?

2. In addition, doesn't "the testimony of Creation" say individuals don't evolve, populations do?

3. In addition, wouldn't a world with only two people constitute a "bottleneck scenario" that would require the most extreme level of fecundity in order to keep from going extinct?

You can't have it both ways and say we came from Adam & Eve, while at the same time say we evolved over n years.

 

[tonychanyt]

The testimony of Creation says that life has been evolving on this planet for the last several billion years.

Define Creation.

 

[AV1611VET]

Define Creation.

His argument boils down to this, and I think he needs to rethink his position.

1. Accept the testimony that we came from Adam & Eve, who were married to each other; and deny we came from y-Adam & mtDNA Eve, who lived millions of years apart.

2. Accept the testimony that we came from y-Adam & mtDNA Eve, and deny we came from Adam & Eve

3. Accept both the testimony that we came from Adam & Eve; as well as y-Adam & mtDNA Eve.

Number Three doesn't make sense, as we are dealing with two different sets of people: one who were husband and wife, the other who lived millions of years apart.

 

[Job 33:6]

Thanks for the link. Can you provide some relevant highlights from the link?

Yes. Basically, there is concordism and there is non-concordism. Non-concordist hermeneutics suggests that the Biblical authors lived in ancient times, and therefore are not aware of modern scientific discoveries of biology and geology. And thus, the Bible describes ancient near east cosmology and a narrative similar to atrahasis. And it shouldn't be confused with modern 21st century biology.

 

[tonychanyt]

Yes. Basically, there is concordism and there is non-concordism. Non-concordist hermeneutics suggests that the Biblical authors lived in ancient times, and therefore are not aware of modern scientific discoveries of biology and geology. And thus, the Bible describes ancient near east cosmology and a narrative similar to atrahasis. And it shouldn't be confused with modern 21st century biology.

Can you display the text from the link and bold the relevant keywords to your point? This is a basic scholarship.

 

[Job 33:6]

Can you display the text from the link and bold the relevant keywords to your point? This is a basic scholarship.

It's a YouTube video, not a research article. And this is the internet, not a PhD research project. If you would like a credible reference on the subject, just pick up any NIV application commentary by John Walton, Tremper Longman III, Bill T Arnold, or any other of the hundreds of OT scholars that speak on ancient isrealite cosmology.

These guys literally write their own Bible translations and you're responding like you think they're uncredentialed.