Adam and Evolution: A Reconciliation

[KWCrazy]

I guess it depends on who you consider a biblical authority.

I don't care who believes what. Either you can produce Scriptural references to evolution and Biblical reasons to reject the story of creation or you can't. If you can, let's see it.

 

[Doveaman]

I also feel the need to make clear that my purpose with this thread is not to debate theistic evolution and young-earth creationism.

After 7 pages?

The point is to discuss the historicity of a literal Adam and Eve within the framework of the modern scientific consensus of the Theory of Evolution.

It's impossible to discuss the biblical Adam and Eve within the framework of the Theory of Evolution. Impossible.

 

[ALoveDivine]

I bet you're a terrible cook.

Actually no, funny enough I'm a professional chef. But that's neither here nor there.

Things which are written in a simple narrative fashion should be taken that way.

Genesis 1 doesn't exactly qualify. Can you not see the vast stylistic differences between Genesis 1 and, say, Genesis 12?

The heart of this heresy is the notion that God could not have described an evolution as easily as he could a six day creation. That's lunacy.

Who says God even intended to teach science or give a literal chronological account of creation? And who exactly are you to pronounce what is or isnt heresy? Do we protestants all of a sudden have a pope im not aware of?

 

[EpiscipalMe]

I don't care who believes what. Either you can produce Scriptural references to evolution and Biblical reasons to reject the story of creation or you can't. If you can, let's see it.

As you know, I am Episcopalian, part of the Anglican tradition. Scripture has primacy, but we interpret Scripture through tradition and reason.

The sources I have studies suggest that this sort of story telling to teach a lesson was common in Biblical times. So, while there is no Biblical evidence to say it is allegorical, there is extra-Biblical evidence to suggest this is how the Israelites would have understood it.

I have no illusions of convincing you to believe in evolution, nor do I care to. I really do not think it matters. As long as we all agree that God created the universe, I think we will all be fine in the eyes of the Lord.

 

[KWCrazy]

The point is to discuss the historicity of a literal Adam and Eve within the framework of the modern scientific consensus of the Theory of Evolution.

The literal Adam and Eve doesn't fit into any machination of the ToE because the ToE demands that both had parents and that fall of man never happened. If you take what is KNOWN about evolution it fits neatly in the diversity of life after the creation and again after the flood. The notion of a single original progenitor doesn't with with science or Scripture. It's a corruption of science into a new religion which disallows the authority of God and subjugates any "creator" withing the laws of physics. You can't blend two mutually exclusive doctrines into anything that makes sense. When you compromise truth with a lie, you get a lie.

 

[ALoveDivine]

It's impossible to discuss the biblical Adam and Eve within the framework of the Theory of Evolution. Impossible.

Did you even bother to read my original post? I put forth a model that embraces the theory of evolution AND postulates a literal, historical first man and woman.

 

[ALoveDivine]

ToE demands that both had parents and that fall of man never happened

I absolutely believe the fall was a literal historical event. That doesnt mean a talking snake seduced Eve into eating a magical fruit from a magical tree. The fall was a real historical event described in a non-literal way.

 

[JacksBratt]

I don't understand why creationists insist that a belief in evolution is contradictory to a belief in God's Word.

Well, for starters, there was no death until the fall...... so....... how did all this evolving take place without any death???

Secondly....Creation took one week. This is what we base our seven day week on. Evolution directly contradicts this and denies God’s creative power. Just as Christ performed miracles instantaneously while He was here on earth, so also He did His work of creation instantaneously during Creation week. The Bible says, “By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. . . . For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast” (Psalm 33:6, 9, NKJV). God says, “I have made the earth, and created man on it. I—My hands—stretched out the heavens, and all their host I have commanded” (Isaiah 45:12, NKJV). One cannot believe these verses and also believe in evolution.

Third......If life developed gradually over millions of years, there would be no explanation for the weekly cycle.

Fourth...The theory of evolution raises questions concerning the purpose for Jesus’ death on the cross. The Bible says that death is the penalty of sin (see Genesis 3:3, 4, 19; Romans 6:23). Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for sin that we should have paid. If the Creation narrative, including the origin of sin, is only myth or allegory, what is sin? And was Jesus’ death necessary? Scripture calls death an “enemy” (1 Corinthians 15:26, NKJV), and the whole plan of salvation was designed to eliminate death and bring humans back to God’s original plan of eternal life.

Fifth....If the theory of progressive evolution from lower life forms to humans is true, there could be a biological basis for considering some human races inferior and others superior, because some races would have advanced further up the evolutionary scale than others.

Sixth...If the Creation narrative is only an allegory, what about other parts of the Bible such as the translation of Elijah to heaven, Jonah and the big fish, and the miracles and resurrection of Jesus? If we dismiss the accuracy of the biblical Creation account, we are free to dismiss other parts of Scripture and thus become the judge of what is or is not true in spite of what Jesus and the Bible authors say.

Seventh...Carried to its logical conclusion, evolution—the undirected, random evolving of living things—eliminates the power of the human will. Darwin, himself, came to the conclusion that free will is an illusion. If evolution is true, then it means that all our choices are merely actions or behaviors determined by our genes or our surrounding environment and are conditioned by past choices—either successful or otherwise. Such a view eliminates the power of choice. But God gave humans free will with the power to choose. Adam and Eve could choose to obey God or not to o

 

[JacksBratt]

I also feel the need to make clear that my purpose with this thread is not to debate theistic evolution and young-earth creationism. The point is to discuss the historicity of a literal Adam and Eve within the framework of the modern scientific consensus of the Theory of Evolution.

If we could stay on topic I believe this discussion could be much more fuitful. There are plenty of other threads where young earth believers and evolutionary creationists can debate the veracity of their positions.

Really?

You think you can come on a Christian forum and discuss the historicity of a literal Adam and Eve without getting into a debate on theistic evolution?

Seriously?

 

[EpiscipalMe]

Well, for starters, there was no death until the fall...... so....... how did all this evolving take place without any death???

Secondly....Creation took one week. This is what we base our seven day week on. Evolution directly contradicts this and denies God’s creative power. Just as Christ performed miracles instantaneously while He was here on earth, so also He did His work of creation instantaneously during Creation week. The Bible says, “By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. . . . For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast” (Psalm 33:6, 9, NKJV). God says, “I have made the earth, and created man on it. I—My hands—stretched out the heavens, and all their host I have commanded” (Isaiah 45:12, NKJV). One cannot believe these verses and also believe in evolution.

Third......If life developed gradually over millions of years, there would be no explanation for the weekly cycle.

Fourth...The theory of evolution raises questions concerning the purpose for Jesus’ death on the cross. The Bible says that death is the penalty of sin (see Genesis 3:3, 4, 19; Romans 6:23). Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for sin that we should have paid. If the Creation narrative, including the origin of sin, is only myth or allegory, what is sin? And was Jesus’ death necessary? Scripture calls death an “enemy” (1 Corinthians 15:26, NKJV), and the whole plan of salvation was designed to eliminate death and bring humans back to God’s original plan of eternal life.

Fifth....If the theory of progressive evolution from lower life forms to humans is true, there could be a biological basis for considering some human races inferior and others superior, because some races would have advanced further up the evolutionary scale than others.

Sixth...If the Creation narrative is only an allegory, what about other parts of the Bible such as the translation of Elijah to heaven, Jonah and the big fish, and the miracles and resurrection of Jesus? If we dismiss the accuracy of the biblical Creation account, we are free to dismiss other parts of Scripture and thus become the judge of what is or is not true in spite of what Jesus and the Bible authors say.

Seventh...Carried to its logical conclusion, evolution—the undirected, random evolving of living things—eliminates the power of the human will. Darwin, himself, came to the conclusion that free will is an illusion. If evolution is true, then it means that all our choices are merely actions or behaviors determined by our genes or our surrounding environment and are conditioned by past choices—either successful or otherwise. Such a view eliminates the power of choice. But God gave humans free will with the power to choose. Adam and Eve could choose to obey God or not to o

There can be sin without a literal Adam and Eve. Sin is a turning away from God. We can all manage to do that just fine, even if Adam and Eve never literally existed. Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Sin exists because we are human and have free will.

For what it's worth, I also think Jonah and the big fish is allegory. Doesn't change the fact that I get the same lessons out of it that you do.

As for your logical conclusion of evolution - evolution says no such thing. Scientists are just starting to unravel what is genetic and what is epigenetic. Besides, my belief in evolution does not preclude a belief in a soul and free will, which are gifts from God.

As for the weekly cycle, I don't know where to begin. We can have seven days in a week even if there was no literal 6 day creation and 1 day of rest. God prescribed 1 of every 7 days are for worshipping Him.

Humans are all one species. There is no biological evidence that one race is better than another, despite what people in the past have used the Bible to argue. Evolution makes no such claim.

I do believe that God gave us minds, intelligence, and the ability to reason. These attributes have led to scientific discovery. Science, in my opinion, is a gift from God, not a challenge to Him.

 

[ALoveDivine]

Well, for starters, there was no death until the fall

Context is very important. The obvious context in Romans is human death and spiritual death. The thrust of the book opens with, "For the wrath of God has been revealed...". Animals are not even a subject of the discussion.

One cannot believe these verses and also believe in evolution.

Yes you can. Countless scholars have demonstrated that there is no discontinuity between God's creation ex nihilo and the scientific record.

If life developed gradually over millions of years, there would be no explanation for the weekly cycle.

There is an obvious explanation. God ordained the weekly cycle. As Jesus says, the sabbath was made for man.

The theory of evolution raises questions concerning the purpose for Jesus’ death on the cross.

Hardly. Read Romans. The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all the unglodliness of men, all men sin, all are under sin, all are under wrath. God put forth Christ publically as a propitiation in his blood to be received by faith. By faith we are reconciled with God. Nothing in the theory of evolution has anything whatsoever to do with the substitutionary atonement of Christ.

..If the theory of progressive evolution from lower life forms to humans is true, there could be a biological basis for considering some human races inferior and others superior

Not true at all. The nonsensical racial ideas that were popular for a time have been soundly refuted by modern science. In fact, much of the data seems to suggest that "race" doesn't even objectively exist. There is one race, the human race.

If we dismiss the accuracy of the biblical Creation account, we are free to dismiss other parts of Scripture and thus become the judge of what is or is not true in spite of what Jesus and the Bible authors say.

Reading the biblical text within the framework of its literary genre and comparing general and special revelation to each other in accordance with the axiomatic philosophical principle of non-contradiction are sound hermeneutical principles.

Also, miracles are non-scientific but they in no way contradict the scientific record or reason. If you postulate the existence of God then miracles become eminently possible, given that the author of the laws of physics is not bound by those laws.

.Carried to its logical conclusion, evolution—the undirected, random evolving of living things—eliminates the power of the human will

Hardly. I am a compatibilist myself, but even libertarian free will can theoretically coexist with biological descent with modification. If the soul posseses a free-willing agency, and this soul is supernaturally created and infused at so e point in time, then the subject in whom it was infused would be metaphysically free no less than if soul and body were miraculously created.

 

[bangmegafan]

Hi All

Im totally confused and I dont understand why God want to test me with my faith and others faith

I have few questions and kindly answer me

1. What was the first creature
2 My understanding is evolution theory starts from big bang, which is matter and later converted to flesh with soul.. I watched at least 10 videos since last two hours to understand this.. So far I don't bother what is evolution theory..but after watching this thread i have started watching those videos to understand better.. all the videos didn't explain how the flesh is created with soul.. They directly jumped into first creature which has soul

3. Are dinosaurs really exist in this world before Bible Genesis 1:1 starts..

4. Then why God said he had created Adam first but not other creature

5. If dinosaurs are created and destroyed by nature, then what is God role there

6. If that is true, I don't believe in God.. Like dinosaurs we will also end and one more most advanced creature will evolve after some time as NATURE IS RULING THE UNIVERSE

Kindly answer

 

[bangmegafan]

No need for evolution to explain the soul. The soul is of God.

Im not sure if you believe in evolution theory or God as I know we cant believe both at the same time

 

[bangmegafan]

No. As I stated in my original post, I believe the soul was miraculously created by God and infused into the two elect hom sapiens, making them human, and hence legitimately the first two humans, also making them spiritual beings and fitting subjects for God's covenant.

I also believe that a real eternal soul is created and infused into each and every human born since Adam and Eve at the moment of conception.

I cant accept as soul is there in every animal and animals are created before human existence as per this theory

So animal let it be dinosaur or aomething else is first creature by God, certainly not adam

 

[EpiscipalMe]

Im not sure if you believe in evolution theory or God as I know we cant believe both at the same time

Of course we can. What about evolution precludes God?

I believe God created through evolution. I believe that God has imbued us with souls.

I see no contradiction.

As for your other post, the big bang and evolution are two different theories. The big bang attempts to explain the formation of the universe. What was present before the big bang? What triggered it? I say God. I'm not sure what an atheist would say.

Evolution describes how life forms change over time and how diversity developed on this planet. What was the first life form and how did it come about? Scientists do not know. I see God here. Again, I do not know what an atheist would say.

Even with evolution, the chance of developing humans with our intelligence and free will is small. I see God's hand in this.

I am comfortable with my faith. I see no conflict between a belief in the big bang / evolution and a belief in God and His Son Jesus Christ.

Others believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis and still others believe something in between.

I think we are all fine in the eyes of our Lord as long as we all accept that God is ultimately responsible for the creation of the universe and everything in it.

 

[bangmegafan]

Of course we can. What about evolution precludes God?

I believe God created through evolution. I believe that God has imbued us with souls.

I see no contradiction.

As for your other post, the big bang and evolution are two different theories. The big bang attempts to explain the formation of the universe. What was present before the big bang? What triggered it? I say God. I'm not sure what an atheist would say.

Evolution describes how life forms change over time and how diversity developed on this planet. What was the first life form and how did it come about? Scientists do not know. I see God here. Again, I do not know what an atheist would say.

Even with evolution, the chance of developing humans with our intelligence and free will is small. I see God's hand in this.

I am comfortable with my faith. I see no conflict between a belief in the big bang / evolution and a belief in God and His Son Jesus Christ.

Others believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis and still others believe something in between.

I think we are all fine in the eyes of our Lord as long as we all accept that God is ultimately responsible for the creation of the universe and everything in it.

Completely agree, but my question.. Why was it not written in Bible.. Why was it mentioned God created man first and Adam named other animals.. Why god didn't mention about other animals which were created before Adam.. If god is ruling this whole universe, why he wanted to create such confusion..why he could not make it clear.. What is the reason to hide

 

[EpiscipalMe]

Completely agree, but my question.. Why was it not written in Bible.. Why was it mentioned God created man first and Adam named other animals.. Why god didn't mention about other animals which were created before Adam.. If god is ruling this whole universe, why he wanted to create such confusion..why he could not make it clear.. What is the reason to hide

I don't believe He was hiding anything. Genesis was written for a primitive people without scientific understanding. In my opinion, it was written to teach a lesson (God created the universe, departure from God's laws is sin with consequences) and accomplishes just that.

 

[bangmegafan]

I don't believe He was hiding anything. Genesis was written for a primitive people without scientific understanding. In my opinion, it was written to teach a lesson (God created the universe, departure from God's laws is sin with consequences) and accomplishes just that.

Then there is no need to specifically say God created creation 7 days.. No need of 1st chapter.. It can be stated with this "God created whole creature including adam and eve in the beginning" The end

 

[EpiscipalMe]

Then there is no need to specifically say God created creation 7 days.. No need of 1st chapter.. It can be stated with this "God created whole creature including adam and eve in the beginning" The end

I have no answer for that which I could swear by, but I see numerous possibilities.

This was originally an oral tradition, stories passed from generation to generation. I suppose the details provided could add to that storytelling. Imagine generations of Israelites sitting around a campfire telling the stories of how they came to be.

Also, he Israelites were not the only people. Other groups had their own oral traditions with their own stories. It was the culture of the time.

 

[HeLeadethMe]

Completely agree, but my question.. Why was it not written in Bible.. Why was it mentioned God created man first and Adam named other animals.. Why god didn't mention about other animals which were created before Adam.. If god is ruling this whole universe, why he wanted to create such confusion..why he could not make it clear.. What is the reason to hide

We need to keep in mind that God's intention in writing the bible was to reveal Himself that we might know Him......and give instruction to all who would believe in Him on how to live and walk before Him. He wasn't writing a science book or a history book. He was writing a spiritual book of truth. There are rich spiritual lessons we can learn from the Genesis account of creation. At the same time He certainly did not lie about how everything was created. If we have faith in God then we believe that any contradictions or things in the bible that we do not understand yet can be resolved, reconciled, by Him.....as we seek His understanding and wisdom. He has all understanding, we do not, but He is willing and able to help us understand as we ask and seek Him. And He doesn't reveal everything over night, but over time as we walk with Him throughout our life.

Animals were created before man came into being. Man wasn't created until the 6th day. And like where it says in the Psalms about Jesus that God created a body for Him.......(and Adam is a figure of Christ)...God created a body for Adam and then breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, just like how Jesus breathed on His disciples and said, receive ye the Holy Spirit.........God breathed into Adam His spirit and that's how Adam became a living soul and no longer just a body without a soul/spirit.

Something regarding evolution, (if the principle of evolution is true).......that it wasn't necessarily the most advanced or smartest animals that survived down through the years, it was simply the animals that had the characteristics best suited to survive whatever the conditions of the environment happened to be at the time they lived (which I believe God would have had a hand in shaping everything according to His will).....regarding food sources, predators, disease, climate, etc. For example during an ice age, animals with fur and who could survive on meat rather than plants would be more likely to survive than animals which did not have fur and which could only eat and digest plants (little to no plants around in an icy climate). Didn't necessarily mean they were more advanced, or smarter, it just meant they were more suited to the environmental conditions at the time, so they survived.

However with mankind, it might have been uniquely man that kept getting smarter and developing a more complex physiology and body chemistry, I assume because we needed to have a complex enough mind to be able to comprehend and know things about God, to have language, to be made in His image and be able to think and talk and understand and feel and do things in a way that expresses His nature.....which animals could not do even if they had been given God's spirit.

I hope that helps solve at least some of the confusion for you, bless you.