Adam and Eve in Heaven?

[katinka]

Me too sister

Were they saved? Knowing God does not save...we are saved by grace alone , by faith alone .. so their salvation.like our depended on Gods grace and the faith that He was sending a Savior..

It would seem that Eve understood that God was going to send a Savior.. and that she believed that promise.. we are also told Cain and Able offered sacrifices (a type of Christ ) ..so it would seem their parents taught them that practice .

If they looked forward to Christ in faith they would have been saved .

Now the deep weed of Reformed theology ..God ordained the fall ... think about that for a few minutes.

I believe God instructed Adam and Eve. ( possibly told them about the Lamb that was slain from the foundations of the world) but he forced them out of paradise ( lest)( in case?) they would also take if the tree of life???
I've explored the deep weed of Reformed Theology to some degree. I just have to believe that Scripture reveals enough of Election and God's complete Sovereignty that no one who seriously searches for Truth can deny. I believe the love God showed in the cross shows he is perfect in love, perfect in holiness, in justice and wrath and any other character traits that are too many to mention.
It is enough for me that he loves us enough to redeem us. I also believe in the universal call, it drives evangelism and God has chosen that instrument to bring in his harvest.

 

[katinka]

God, in His sovereignty, ordains whatsoever comes to pass (if He did not, He would not be sovereign). This hardly means that He CAUSES whatsoever comes to pass, but He does ALLOW many things to happen that are otherwise opposed to His will for us.

"Sin" is certainly one of those things (that He "ordains" but does not "cause" )

God "ordained" the Fall (in the sense that He knew it was going to happen/allowed it to happen), but He didn't cause it, or force our first parents to sin against Him, they chose that for themselves. Had He done so, then He would be the undoubted "Author of evil".

On the other hand, "Hyper-Calvinism" does teach that God "caused" the Fall. However, Hyper-Calvinism (which took our name as part of their own) is NOT Calvinism/Reformed theology, nor is it an off-shoot/branch of Calvinism or Reformed theology. Hyper-Calvinism is, at best, heresy.

The insinuation that God "caused" the Fall is not Reformed Theology's, deep weed, but it does show a deep misunderstanding about what we actually teach

Yours and His,
David

 

[katinka]

David.
Some years ago an atheist traveled the world over with hard questions. One was "did God create good and evil? " he interviewed great thinkers and theologians. All of them vehemently denied that God created evil. He found an old monk in the Tibetan mountains who said" of course God created evil. God is Sovereign. If evil is--then it was created. The tree in Eden was put there by God. If Satan or anyone else is responsible for the existence of it then there is a co-creator.
I can live with Sovereign God, I can love Sovereign God.
I do not intend to cause conflict, I am just asking questions.
( smiles)

 

[AJTruth]

I have asked a few people if they think Adam and Eve will be in heaven. Invariably I get the same answer, "Of course they will be in heaven."
I do object to that.
1) Adam blamed Eve.
2) Eve blamed the serpent.
3) Neither of them repented or were sorry.
4) God sacrificed animals to cover their nakedness.
5) Sacrifices were temporary.
6) God forced them out of the garden
7) He placed a Cherubim and a flaming sword at the entrance LEST they repent and also eat of the tree of life. (Jesus had to first come and open that door)

I understand that in the old Testament it seems sacrifices were offered for forgiveness of sins and year for the forgiveness of a whole year of sins. However that is another onion to peel. That belongs to the question of Abrahamic Covenant Theology and Faith.

So, I am interested in any opinion anyone might have to help me overcome my objection to the idea that I may cohabit in heaven with Adam and Eve.
Please don't tell me I am self righteous, or that I think I would have done better had I been Eve. I am not that naïve.
In my understanding a person must repent in order to be saved.
But, on the other hand, I'm always open to good counsel.

Sin always has consequence. Adam & Eve choose to sin. God pronounced many consequence.

The sacrificial system is where a sinless life is given in place of the guilty. This animal sacrifice system could only cover sin, not atone for it. God sacrificed an animal and covered their sin.

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed (covered) them.

The reason God drove them out of the garden. Was to keep them from the tree of life & living forever in their fallen state.

Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Adam & Eve were before the law was given:

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Romans 5:13 For until the law (Given thru Moses at Mt Sinai) sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Today, we achieve righteousness, justification, salvation through faith. In the ultimate sin atoning sacrifice. Found in the death, burial & resurrection of a willing, sinless Christ.

After our salvation we still commit sin. But, it is no longer imputed to us. Its transferred to Christ who became sin & paid sins required wage (DEATH).

Even though our salvation is secure. Our sin still has consequence. The consequence from sinning could manifest itself, in many different ways. A health issue, a broken relationship, disease, lost earned heavenly rewards etc.

A believers sin will not result in the loss of salvation. Adam & Eve suffered many consequence for their sin. It is Gods grace (He covered them) and ultimately Christ's payment that saved them too.

 

[katinka]

Sin always has consequence. Adam & Eve choose to sin. God pronounced many consequence.

The sacrificial system is where a sinless life is given in place of the guilty. This animal sacrifice system could only cover sin, not atone for it. God sacrificed an animal and covered their sin.

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed (covered) them.

The reason God drove them out of the garden. Was to keep them from the tree of life & living forever in their fallen state.

Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Adam & Eve were before the law was given:

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Romans 5:13 For until the law (Given thru Moses at Mt Sinai) sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Today, we achieve righteousness, justification, salvation through faith. In the ultimate sin atoning sacrifice. Found in the death, burial & resurrection of a willing, sinless Christ.

After our salvation we still commit sin. But, it is no longer imputed to us. Its transferred to Christ who became sin & paid sins required wage (DEATH).

Even though our salvation is secure. Our sin still has consequence. The consequence from sinning could manifest itself, in many different ways. A health issue, a broken relationship, disease, lost earned heavenly rewards etc.

A believers sin will not result in the loss of salvation. Adam & Eve suffered many consequence for their sin. It is Gods grace (He covered them) and ultimately Christ's payment that saved them too.

Thank you for the clear picture, I appreciate that. Somehow accepting what you said leaves me with even more questions. 'I was questioning Adam and Eve's not repenting or being sorry for their disobedience. So how does that affect the general population and salvation since Adam and Eve? How does one get saved?
Because the demons and Satan himself believe in Jesus.

 

[St_Worm2]

David.
Some years ago an atheist traveled the world over with hard questions. One was "did God create good and evil? " he interviewed great thinkers and theologians. All of them vehemently denied that God created evil. He found an old monk in the Tibetan mountains who said" of course God created evil. God is Sovereign. If evil is--then it was created. The tree in Eden was put there by God. If Satan or anyone else is responsible for the existence of it then there is a co-creator.
I can live with Sovereign God, I can love Sovereign God.
I do not intend to cause conflict, I am just asking questions.
( smiles)

Hi again Katinka, like Taoism, which has at its core the teaching of Yin/Yang, Buddhism teaches that there is a 'necessary' balance that exists between good and evil, or light and dark, and that they are both innate, inseparable aspects of this life (IOW, that one cannot exist apart from the other). So it's not surprising that a Tibetan monk would say that God "created" evil, but this teaching is diametrically opposed to the teaching of Christianity (of course, neither Taoism nor Buddhism teach the existence of a personal God, so it's always interesting when they choose to speak for Him ).

If God is truly "loving", as I know you believe He is, do you also believe that His love could possibly include causing/forcing people to sin, and then punishing them eternally for something that He "made" them do Such a thing, if true, would be a deep weed indeed

God 'tests' or disciplines us for our own good (e.g. Hebrews 12:9-10), but He never "tempts" us (which would carry with it the addition of a hope or intention on His part that we will sin .. or that we must sin .. see the St. James quote below).

James 1
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
​

Yours in Christ,
David

 

[katinka]

Hi again Katinka, like Taoism, which has at its core the teaching of Yin/Yang, Buddhism teaches that there is a 'necessary' balance that exists between good and evil, or light and dark, and that they are both innate, inseparable aspects of this life (IOW, that one cannot exist apart from the other). So it's not surprising that a Tibetan monk would say that God "created" evil, but this teaching is diametrically opposed to the teaching of Christianity (of course, neither Taoism nor Buddhism teach the existence of personal God, so it's always interesting when they choose to speak for Him ).

If God is truly "loving", as I know you believe He is, do you also believe that His love could possibly include causing/forcing people to sin, and then punishing them eternally for something that He "made" them do Such a thing, if true, would be a deep weed indeed

God 'tests' or disciplines us for our own good (e.g. Hebrews 12:9-10), but He never "tempts" us (which would carry with it the addition of a hope or intention on His part that we will sin .. or that we must sin .. see the St. James quote below).

James 1
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
​

Yours in Christ,
David

Wow, that is a lot. Thanks for the good thoughts on that. No wonder many think about the matter and few are willing to discuss or even ask the question. I have seen the subject matter discussed on this forum. With sin dominant in the world today many people falter at considering a good God who allows sin to seemingly reign.
John McArthur spoke on the subject and said God wills sin. I don't get that either. I think the origin of sin is one of the secret things that belongs to God.
The fact remains, sin exists.

 

[St_Worm2]

Wow, that is a lot. Thanks for the good thoughts on that. No wonder many think about the matter and few are willing to discuss or even ask the question. I have seen the subject matter discussed on this forum. With sin dominant in the world today many people falter at considering a good God who allows sin to seemingly reign.
John McArthur spoke on the subject and said God wills sin. I don't get that either. I think the origin of sin is one of the secret things that belongs to God.
The fact remains, sin exists.

It does indeed But it won't always exist, not in the age to come

As for MacArthur, I know his teaching on this subject well. In saying that God "wills sin", he means that God is sovereign over its existence, that He ALLOWS its existence, not that God sins personally, or that He is the CAUSE of anyone choosing to sin.

He could CAUSE everyone to always choose "righteousness", of course, but if He did that, our wills would no longer be free!

Yours in Christ,
David

 

[katinka]

It does indeed But it won't always exist, not in the age to come

As for MacArthur, I know his teaching on this subject well. In saying that God "wills sin", he means that God is sovereign over its existence, that He ALLOWS its existence, not that God sins personally, or that He is the CAUSE of anyone choosing to sin.

He could CAUSE everyone to always choose "righteousness", of course, but if He did that, our wills would no longer be free!

Yours in Christ,
David

I know, I heard that sermon. However, God planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden. Satan said to Eve, in Ge 3:5 KJV
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened , and ye shall be as gods, knowing both good and evil.
If there were no evil and only good then we would be back in paradise and that set-up, though ideal, would go nowhere.
There would be no challenges, no choices, no hate etc. etc. there would be no appreciation of good, no rewards etc. you know what I mean.
God is Master Creator, every finger print, every blade of grass, etc. is uniquely one...
You know where I'm going...

 

[St_Worm2]

If there were no evil and only good then we would be back in paradise and that set-up, though ideal, would go nowhere.
There would be no challenges, no choices, no hate etc. etc. there would be no appreciation of good, no rewards etc. you know what I mean.
God is Master Creator, every finger print, every blade of grass, etc. is uniquely one...
You know where I'm going...

Hi again Sister, you hit upon the crazy "key" to all of it. If God didn't allow us to disobey Him, then our wills would not be free, and for some crazy reason, He clearly wanted us to have free will (which I believe our first parents really and truly had!). We still have free will in the sense that we can choose according to that which we desire most at a given moment in time, but our nature is tarnished and fallen, so unlike Adam & Eve, our desire will never be "for" God unless He steps in and makes some "adjustments" (e.g. Ezekiel 36:26; John 3:3; cf 2 Corinthians 5:17)

In fact, we don't even have a "neutral" desire where He is concerned, which is the type of desire (neither for nor against) that I believe our first parents had for Him in the Garden. They had the liberty to make a real choice for or against seeking/obeying Him, but we cannot, as the Bible tells us we never seek Him .. Romans 3:10-12, and that none of us in our natural, fallen condition, apart from the HS and w/o the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:12-16) can understand Him or know Him .. 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Yours and His,
David

 

[katinka]

So glad we met, my brother. I've enjoyed this chat throughout the day. Didn't get much else done but it's ok. We do agree on many things and I'm glad. I think the devil whispered once into my ear that God created evil. I frantically denied it but it stayed in my mind and crops up now and again against my will. I'm reconciled that God created it for his eternal, unsearchable reasons and it is one of his secret things. At first I was repulsed at the thought of what sin encompasses and at God for allowing it and letting us grapple wth it from birth just because our first parents chose to disobey.
What leases me even in my dilemma is the fact that because of Calvary I can love the Father who on my mind created evil if he is wholly Sovereign. His love covers all inequity and all the hate we put upon him. " While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Good night, new friend and brother.

 

[AlexDTX]

In my understanding a person must repent in order to be saved.
But, on the other hand, I'm always open to good counsel.

The question is, What do we repent of to be saved? The only thing I know is our thinking. We repent of thinking we can save ourselves and realize that we need a Savior. Then we believe in the Savior and we are saved. Adam and Eve were told of the Messiah to come in Genesis 3:15. After Seth was born they thought that he would be the promised Messiah since Seth means the appointed one in Hebrew. They were saved the all were saved before the incarnation: that the Messiah would come and save them.

 

[St_Worm2]

Goodnight Katinka , I enjoyed talking with you today as well

Talk to you soon (Dv)

--David

 

[FireDragon76]

My favorite icon theme is the traditional eastern icon of Christ's resurrection, pulling up Adam and Eve from the grave. So I'd say yes, that's the traditional belief. I'm not an expert of the exegesis, though, from a purely "bible only" standpoint.

Indeed, in eastern churches (not sure about Roman Catholics), Adam is considered an Old Testament saint:

 

[FireDragon76]

Eastern spirituality sees Adam and Eve more like parents that you love but they wreck the family car and now you have to walk everywhere. There's not as much blaming of Adam and Eve.

 

[St_Worm2]

Eastern spirituality sees Adam and Eve more like parents that you love but they wreck the family car and now you have to walk everywhere. There's not as much blaming of Adam and Eve.

You're right, neither does the EOC hold to Original Sin, and the only thing they seem to "blame" Adam for is "death" entering our realm. This is a conversation that I'd hoped to have at length with several friends from both sides of the aisle around here but, unfortunately, it never came to fruition.

I've looked closely at the teaching of Ancestral Sin, but when I consider what the Bible says, and also what our race so clearly and continually reveals about itself every day of our existence, I'm gonna need a lot of help to come to an understanding of why they believe what they do (much less come around to 'believing' their POV about all of this).

So I am definitely looking forward to the discussion (Dv).

--David

 

[FireDragon76]

You're right, neither does the EOC hold to Original Sin, and the only thing they seem to "blame" Adam for is "death" entering our realm.

They aren't Augustinian, generally (though Rusian Orthodoxy was influenced by him to some extent due to interest in western/scholastic theology), but beyond that I'd say it's more of a difference of emphasis than substance. There's not only death entering our realm, but also corruption in general. In that sense, they do believe in human depravity.

Another thing to consider is their views of Adam are from the point of view of redemptive history. This perspective is not always present in Protestant perspectives on Adam and Eve. And they retain the nonlinear view of time of eastern cultures, including biblical writers.

The real difference east and west is that the eastern perspective is less juridical (law court imagery) and "objective" and more therapeutic and mystical. Assigning blame to Adam would go against their therapeutic ethos, since resentment is an undesirable passion that harms ones spiritual growth.

 

[Greg J.]

If Scripture doesn't say in what way Adam and/or Eve repented, then the only answer is that we don't know (unless God tells you). However, it is useful for understanding salvation for us to speculate on the possible answers.

Salvation has always been by trusting God alone to save the person and not by anything the person could do. That faith could come through a variety of things (the Mosaic Law being one). The one that came to genuinely entrust themselves to God would then be living to please God, which includes doing what was right in their own minds and not doing wrong.

Personally, since Adam and Eve experienced what life was like before sin existed, I think it more likely than not they repented before dying—because God loved them enough to create them and kept loving them. But spiritual blindness may also have been unusually strong in them because they fell farther than anyone else who has ever lived.

 

[FireDragon76]

But spiritual blindness may also have been unusually strong in them because they fell farther than anyone else who has ever lived.

I don't see this idea really supported in the Scriptures. Let's not confuse innocence with platonic notions of perfection. Adam and Eve were like kids playing with a light socket. They were not perfectly wise, even if they were created good. They had no understanding why it was important to obey God, after all, or what something like death could even mean.

I really disagree that we can't "blame" God, too. That's exactly what the Cross is about, God taking the blame and making peace with us. In fact, for some people, blaming God could be exactly what they have to do in that moment. With blaming God potentially comes letting go of ultimate responsibility and self-sufficiency, two things that can be detrimental to faith. Imagine a sinner having to carry the weight of the world of their own shoulders- it's better to give that to God and to move on with life.

 

[Blade]

Hi katinka.. I wonder sometimes. Some of the things Jesus said.. was it JUST for them or could it go backwards or even forwards?

Well one time Jesus said.. if I had not come and spoken they would have no sin. Hmm some still think "sin" the payment is being away from God forever. What we find written is.. sin .. the wages the price you get for sinning in this life is death. God told them.. if you eat of this tree you will die. Sin..everything from man to this earth air you name it is dying.

To think Adam and Eve lost forever for taking a bite. Not what God said. Yet GOD still talked to them. And if lost forever then how could Jesus ever been born? SOMETHING had to be pure all the way back so to speak See satan and all those fallen angels were with God in all his power glory.. yet sin was found in satan. Satan got to see feel be apart of ALL that God was doing. Yet made the choice and those that followed him to fall. That's why there is no salvation for them. They dont want to go back.

Man never got to see any of that. Adam and Eve didnt make that choice. They were lied to..deveived. Yet all this has a reason and EVERYTHING God does is for the BEST not worse. It would seem it looks bad..but have faith. This was not the way He wanted it yet He new it before the world was. When satan feel and how long that was.. we dont know. Hell/fire was made for satan and his angles..never for man. But Adam and Eve lost forever? No.. All they had to do was eat of the tree of life and THIS life we live would be like this forever!

I could have just said.. its not written.