Acts 21-28 Paul is a Messianic Jew and declares his views under oath

BobRyan · May 7, 2015

In the model you are using James says to Paul "Hey Paul they are on to you so run!! Whatever you do -- do not go near the temple because those accusations about you are all true and they know it! They have you dead to rights bro! Run buddy run!".

But in the Model that is the "actual Bible" this is what we find.

BobRyan said:
Until one reads the details in Acts 21 --

==========================================

notice then the "details" in Paul's clarification to his fellow Messianic Jews in Acts 21.

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

(Many on this board would be tempted to argue - "yeah... that is EXACTLY what Paul was doing!" - Paul goes out of his way to disprove it.

22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law..

And those who want to just focus on one tiny verse in Acts 21 -- Acts 21:25 to the exclusion of the entire episode - find that there in that one tiny verse gentiles are not commandment to "Love God with all their heart" or to "love your neighbor as yourself" nor even "thou shalt not murder" ... none of that is in Acts 21:25. Since obviously Acts 21:25 is NOT the "tiny 1 verse Bible left for gentiles" - but rather shows the restrictions from OT food laws that need to be held up as reminders for Gentiles as new practice they might not be familiar with.

What we have quoted there is this restriction from Lev 17 and eating meat with blood in it.

Acts 21:25
25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.

In the case of the two above - they are from Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 -- quoted by Christ, and Paul and james 2 in Lev 19 form -- but not in Acts 21:25 or in Acts 15... because those two are not trying to downsize/resize scripture at all - they allow for all of it.

Clearly the Christian church had no vendetta against the TEN Commandments, or against the 4th Commandment at the time of Acts 15 and Acts 21.

. 21For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.

Indeed it did -- i showed it to you over and over.

James recommends that Paul go to the Temple and Paul agrees - they do this to "prove a point" against the false accusations being made against Paul.

What were the false accusations? James tells us all what they were.

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

Paul is ready to take immediate steps to refute that false accusation.

how - "instructive"

Frogster · May 7, 2015

BobRyan said:
In the model you are using James says to Paul "Hey Paul they are on to you run!! Whatever you do -- do not go near the temple because those accusations about you are all true and they know it! Run buddy run!".

But in the Model that is the "actual Bible" this is what we find.

well, if Paul were this law keeping Jew, why no temple for 17 years?

BobRyan · May 8, 2015

Frogster said:
well, if Paul were this law keeping Jew, why no temple for 17 years?

One temple - MANY Synagogues!!

No Jews in Acts 21 complaining that Paul is not present in the TEMPLE.

Many concerned that "maybe" he is not fully endorsing Moses due to false accusations made against Paul.

Exactly WHAT false accusations were being made against Paul? Well we saw that "in scripture" here #101

Because in the Bible "details matter"

Frogster · May 8, 2015

BobRyan said:
One temple - MANY Synagogues!!

No Jews in Acts 21 complaining that Paul is not present in the TEMPLE.

Many concerned that "maybe" he is not fully endorsing Moses due to false accusations made against Paul.

Exactly WHAT false accusations were being made against Paul? Well we saw that "in scripture" here #101

Because in the Bible "details matter"

My point stands, if paul were into judaism, why no temple for 17 years?

he was not "attending" synagogue, but he preached in the synagogues, this>>>

39 and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses. 40 Beware, therefore, lest what is said in the Prophets should come about:

41
Look, you scoffers,
be astounded and perish;
for I am doing a work in your days,
a work that you will not believe, even if one tells it to you.

BobRyan · May 8, 2015

Then your argument is "with the text" - paul does not say "ignore everything I say under oath unless I attend the Temple in Jerusalem"

Rather Paul says this - giving his own sworn testimony of his own practice and doctrine.

Acts 21
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law

Acts 24
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets

Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.;

Acts 26
Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come; 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles;

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening

Frogster · May 8, 2015

BobRyan said:
Then your argument is "with the text" - paul does not say "ignore everything I say under oath unless I attend the Temple in Jerusalem"

Rather Paul says this - giving his own sworn testimony of his own practice and doctrine.

[FONT=&quot]Acts 21
[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets

Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT][/FONT]

all of those verse have been refuted!

BobRyan · May 8, 2015

Frogster said:
all of those verse have been refuted!

Those who claim to refute the Bible are admitting that their argument "is with the text".

I will stick with the text.

To each his own.

in Christ,

Bob

Frogster · May 8, 2015

BobRyan said:
Those who claim to refute the Bible are admitting that their argument "is with the text".

I will stick with the text.

To each his own.

in Christ,

Bob

Paul was about the resurrection in those verses, i proved it, to you can keep on highlighting it in red, to make it seem to be what you want, but anyone following along, now knows those verses are about the resurrection.

21, Paul did not go around killing and stealing, and I showed you about Acts 21, they thought Paul said sin to get grace, like Rom 3:8, so yeah, Paul took the vow, to help James, and to not have people think he taught apostasy.And he said he did certain things for the Gospel.

Yes, paul was right, he did not go around commiting adultery or stealing. But you ignore so much, as you try to freeze a verse to act like paul lived as a Jew, when he did not, and the whole thrust of Acts Paul was about the resurrection.

So go ahead, make it red and bold, but people now know.

BobRyan · May 8, 2015

Frogster said:
Paul was about the resurrection in those verses, i proved it,

Actually I think this may be the part you missed. They were not all verses about the future resurrection. You could argue that Paul is trying to show how his acceptance of Christ being the OT predicted Messiah must also include the resurrection of Christ - but in the texts quoted Paul in no way limits his testimony under oath to gentile judges "to just the resurrection" rather he specifically speaks to what it is in the OT that he is promoting.

Here is a bible detail not to be quickly dismissed in those texts - and never -- ever -- refuted that I have seen on this board.

In Acts 21 James is specific about what the false accusation is.

I will quote that again in case it has been forgotten.

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

James makes not mention of "stealing and killing".

Nor would a false accusation about 'stealing and killing" be addressed by taking a Nazarite vow and performing a part of the ceremonial law.

As we all know.

This is irrefutable.

in Christ,

Bob

Frogster · May 8, 2015

BobRyan said:
Actually I think this may be the part you missed. They were not all verses about the future resurrection. You could argue that Paul is trying to show how his acceptance of Christ being the OT predicted Messiah must also include the resurrection of Christ - but in the texts quoted Paul in no way limits his testimony under oath to gentile judges "to just the resurrection" rather he specifically speaks to what it is in the OT that he is promoting.

Here is a bible detail not to be quickly dismissed in those texts - and never -- ever -- refuted that I have seen on this board.

In Acts 21 James is specific about what the false accusation is.

I will quote that again in case it has been forgotten.

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

James makes not mention of "stealing and killing".

Nor would a false accusation about 'stealing and killing" be addressed by taking a Nazarite vow and performing a part of the ceremonial law.

As we all know.

This is irrefutable.

in Christ,

Bob

you forgot, that forsake Moses, means APOSTASY in the Greek, so it was a bigger picture, than you think. Beyond ceremony...

21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.

listed · May 9, 2015

BobRyan said:
Actually I think this may be the part you missed. They were not all verses about the future resurrection. You could argue that Paul is trying to show how his acceptance of Christ being the OT predicted Messiah must also include the resurrection of Christ - but in the texts quoted Paul in no way limits his testimony under oath to gentile judges "to just the resurrection" rather he specifically speaks to what it is in the OT that he is promoting.

Here is a bible detail not to be quickly dismissed in those texts - and never -- ever -- refuted that I have seen on this board.

In Acts 21 James is specific about what the false accusation is.

I will quote that again in case it has been forgotten.

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

James makes not mention of "stealing and killing".

Nor would a false accusation about 'stealing and killing" be addressed by taking a Nazarite vow and performing a part of the ceremonial law.

As we all know.

This is irrefutable.

in Christ,

Bob

v 25 shows Paul was telling those things to Gentiles.

BobRyan · May 11, 2015

Frogster said:
you forgot, that forsake Moses, means APOSTASY in the Greek, so it was a bigger picture, than you think. Beyond ceremony...

21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.

Indeed they would view this idea of forsaking Moses to be a big deal - I never question that.

Even Christ said in Luke 16 "if they do not listen to Moses they will not listen even though one rises from the dead".

I am fine with that high emphasis on scripture by Christ, James and Paul.

Notice the form of "proof" that James and Paul choose to refute the false accusation?

It addresses exactly what the accusation was - proving it to be false.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · May 30, 2015

listed said:
v 25 shows Paul was telling those things to Gentiles.

Acts 21 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

James makes not mention of "stealing and killing".

In thread the issue is to look at Paul's practice and his teaching - he claims is not telling Jews to forsake Moses. Some would argue "well then maybe Paul is telling gentile Christians to ignore Moses" -- how often then does Paul quote Moses as authorotative and as scripture - as "commandment" for the saints? Notice in Eph 6:2 the TEN commandments are being promoted for Christians.

Notice that in Rom 13, and Rom 7 the TEN Commandments are being promoted for gentiles and for Jews alike as if they matter. And they are not just limited to the small letter of Acts 15 in those cases. Notice that we see the same thing in James 2 - quoting Moses all the way.

BobRyan · Jul 5, 2015

Very difficult to get this to mean that Paul agreed with the accusations made against him.

BobRyan said:
notice then the "details" in Paul's clarification to his fellow Messianic Jews in Acts 21.

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

(Many on this board would be tempted to argue - "yeah... that is EXACTLY what Paul was doing!" - Paul goes out of his way to disprove it.

22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law..

And those who want to just focus on one tiny verse in Acts 21 -- Acts 21:25 to the exclusion of the entire episode - find that there in that one tiny verse gentiles are not commandment to "Love God with all their heart" or to "love your neighbor as yourself" nor even "thou shalt not murder" ... none of that is in Acts 21:25. Since obviously Acts 21:25 is NOT the "tiny 1 verse Bible left for gentiles" - but rather shows the restrictions from OT food laws that need to be held up as reminders for Gentiles as new practice they might not be familiar with.

What we have quoted there is this restriction from Lev 17 and eating meat with blood in it.

Acts 21:25
25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.”

In the case of the two above - they are from Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 -- quoted by Christ, and Paul and james 2 in Lev 19 form -- but not in Acts 21:25 or in Acts 15... because those two are not trying to downsize/resize scripture at all - they allow for all of it.

Meowzltov · Jul 14, 2015

BobRyan said:
What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles starting with clarification of his teaching for his fellow Messianic Jews.

Acts 21
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law

Acts 24
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets

Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.;

Acts 26
Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come; 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles;

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening

GREAT summation. This is why I tell people like frogster who want to say that "becoming like a gentile" meant breaking all the torah laws is nonsense, because Paul testified under oath that he kept all the laws and traditions.

Meowzltov · Jul 14, 2015

Frogster said:
by 49 AD the synagogues were just for the Jews, not the Jewish Christians let alone Gentile Christians,

The Jews didn't kick the Christians out of the synagogues until around 85 AD. But the final break between the Jews and the Messianics came after the bar Kochba rebellion. It was largely out of hatred for the Messinaic Jews not fighting along with the rebellion; it was seen as an abandonment of the Jewish people during a time of trouble.

Meowzltov · Jul 14, 2015

listed said:
Those Messianic Jews were Jews and not Gentile MJs. Quite a difference.

Yes, it is a significant difference. I've tried to point that out.

Frogster · Jul 14, 2015

Open Heart said:
The Jews didn't kick the Christians out of the synagogues until around 85 AD. But the final break between the Jews and the Messianics came after the bar Kochba rebellion. It was largely out of hatred for the Messinaic Jews not fighting along with the rebellion; it was seen as an abandonment of the Jewish people during a time of trouble.

oh my! ..by ac

Open Heart said:
The Jews didn't kick the Christians out of the synagogues until around 85 AD. But the final break between the Jews and the Messianics came after the bar Kochba rebellion. It was largely out of hatred for the Messinaic Jews not fighting along with the rebellion; it was seen as an abandonment of the Jewish people during a time of trouble.

lol..by acts 8 a few years after Pent the persecutions started, and by 12 it was outright the jews were waiting to kill Peter. Did, you do not know text, u never argue from text..

Meowzltov · Jul 14, 2015

Frogster said:
lol..by acts 8 a few years after Pent the persecutions started, and by 12 it was outright the jews were waiting to kill Peter. Did, you do not know text, u never argue from text..

Text. Acts 21. James and the messianics are still in the synagogues, heck are still giving sacrifices in the temple.

Frogster · Jul 14, 2015

Open Heart said:
Text. Acts 21. James and the messianics are still in the synagogues, heck are still giving sacrifices in the temple.

Only in the early days, then Christians were not welcome in the gogues.

read my thread on Acts 15:21, then reply.

Acts 21-28 Paul is a Messianic Jew and declares his views under oath

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