AVBunyan said:
"Ephesians 4.5 is indeed refering to baptism in water in Jesus' name, as is Colossians 2.11-15."
Sorry, my friend, you can't find water within 5 books. I believe vs. 12 goes with vs. 11 and vs. 11 was an act of God (made without hands) so the baptism there in vs. 12 is what took place when Christ put you in the body of Christ. Becasue we see the word baptism we autimatically assume "water" - then go to I Cor. 10:2 - that is not water - Israel came out dry as a bone!
Colossians 2
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
When someone is baptized in water in Jesus name are they just performing the physical act of getting wet or is it an "act of faith" as it says here in Colossians? It is an act of faith. The physical act of baptism and the reason a person does it are tied together. That makes baptism a spiritual as well as a physical event. That means it is an act of faith towards Jesus and the Calvary that He went to.
AVBunyan said:
"That is why Philip spoke with and explained to the Eunuch first who Jesus was and what baptism was about in Act 8.26-38"
Ah, here we go - somewhere I showed you the purpose of baptism (may have been another thread - I get confused). Look real close at:
John 1:31 "And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water."
The message was, (paraphrasing) "You believe that Jesus is your messiah? Ok, then get baptized!" That message carried on through Acts. The question was asked concerning WHO JESUS WAS. The eunuch answered, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." and when he essentially believed the issue John raised in John 1:31 then the eunuch was baptized. Again, the issue and mesage was, "Do you belive Jesus is who He says He is? If you do then get baptized." The message wasn't believe that Christ died for your sins, etc. (I Cor. 15:1-5) it was regarding the truth of who Jesus said he was. We are not saved by believing who Jesus was - our message is based upon what Jesus DID FOR US AT CALVARY. This message was not even fully revealed until Paul. Philipp was going by OT truth and the truth of calvary had yet to be fully revealed. At the time of the eunuch you were still under John's baptism and the kingdom age message. Remeber the problem Israel had in the gospels was believing that He was the Christ.
Phillip explained to the Eunuch who Jesus was and what his purpose was. The scripture the Eunuch was reading when Philip happened upon him was in the book of Isaiah and speaking specifically about Jesus' death. The Eunuch was explained who Jesus was and what happened to Him in the scripture so he had a working knowledge of Calvary. Remember the OT clearly spelled out how the Saviour would come, how He would live, and how He would die. Anyone who was familiar with the OT(i.e. Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc.) knew the fate of the Saviour to come and what it meant. The Eunuch asked Phillip if this Jesus was that Saviour spoken of in Isaiah.
AVBunyan said:
"Acts 2 speaks about remission of sins. Sin is why people go to Hell(or the Lake of Fire, ultimately) to put it bluntly. If you remit their sins they are now ready to stand before God clean. So I would say it is very much a salvation issue."
Again, the issue was not "forgiveness" - If God wanted forgiveness there He would have put forgiveness. Remission and forgiveness are close but they are different - look closely at the English definition. Remission carries with it "overlooking", whereas forgiveness carries with it "done". God remitted Israel's sins in the OT based upon bulls and goats knowing later that Christ would settle it. Israel's sins AS A NATION, are different than individuals today. God remitted those Jews in early Acts but as a nation they would not be forgiven until the second advent - look closely at Acts 3:19,20:
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Not "may be" - note "when" - note "shall come" - all future references - not talking about Calvary.
Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Note "shall send" - future, not Calvary but 2nd advent. Jesus had already come so their conversion and forgiveness AS A NATION would be at the 2nd advent. I know it sounds far-fetched but that is what the verses are referring to and much of the OT points to the future day when God will restore Israel. Pul was given the turth about Calvary and the sin and sin issue for the individual. Peter didn't even know that in Acts 2 yet!
Entry: remission
Function: noun
Definition: acquittal
Synonyms: absolution, amnesty,
discharge, excuse, exemption,
exoneration,
forgiveness, indulgence, mercy, pardon,
release, reprieve
Concept: freedom
Remission and forgiveness mean the same thing.
Romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;
to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
The message of salvation is no different for the Jews or the Greeks. Peter preached the first message in Acts 2 and the bible said the people gladly heard it and 3000 souls were added to them. Phillip then brought the message of salvation to the Samaritans in Acts 8 and finally Peter brought the message of salvation to the "Greeks" in Acts 10. The only difference is that Jesus told the apostles to bring the salvation message to the Jews first which they did in Jerusalem.
Acts 3.19 is referring to salvation as is Acts 2.38. Peter told the people to repent and be converted(born again). After the baptism God refreshes us with the Holy Ghost. It was not some distant promise for generations later.
AVBunyan said:
"Remember the first thing Jesus did when His ministry was just getting started(around age 30)? He was baptized by John the Baptist and in so doing Jesus said it becomes us to fulfil all righteousness:"
As we know Jesus didn't get baptized to be saved. He was delcaring the truth that John said, (paraphrasing) "I believe I am the messiah so therefore I am doing what John told - so go and do likewise if you believe I am your messiah."
Jesus was baptized because He was led of God to do so just as He was led of God to do everything that He did.
AVBunyan said:
"Jesus made it pretty clear what OT laws we don't follow to the letter, yet they still have spiritual significance and speak to us metaphorically."
I still believe in Matt. 23 Jesus told his people to follow all the law - nothing had been done away with at that time so they were still under the law. So, when Christ gave the "great commission" the keeping of the law would have been included for the church age and grace and the the body of Christ had yet to be revealed so essentially you were still under the law until Israel rejected the kingdom offer and Paul was called out and the body of Christ and Paul's gospel was revealed.
The bible says the law will be your judge if you are not under grace. Although Paul spoke more of grace than any other apostle, Peter is the one to whom the keys of the kingdom of Heaven were given. Peter established the preaching of baptism in Jesus' name before Paul was even converted and it was for salvation. Peter fulfilled Matthew 28.18-19, Mark 16.15-16, and Luke 24.47 in Acts 2. Once baptized (look at Romans 6.1-6) we are no longer subject to the law, but the spirit of God.
AVBunyan said:
"This can be a pretty deep subject that can't be done justice in one or two paragraphs, but I am willing to answer any other questions."
You are right - I have just skimmed the surface on how God deals with Israel as a nation as compared to how God is dealing with the church, the body of Christ today. This can clear up much confusion in the body of Christ today. I've always believed that a doctrinal truth for some else in another time becomes unscriptural confusion when applied to another people in another age it was not intended for.
This can be true, but we are talking about the NT church which was established from Acts 2 and the first message preached in Jerusalem by Peter. We fall into the same category as the Jews of that time frame.
Romans 2
28
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Christians are Jews by faith. Faith is demonstrated by action otherwise faith is dead. It(faith) starts in the head(belief) and makes it to the hands(action).
AVBunyan said:
"You will need to give specific examples of where you think Peter and Paul differed in the administration of theire ministries."
You have touched upon a great study. I would like to give you those but I am on break at work and just can't dive into that now but if you like I will present you their messages and show you that Peter was teh apostle sent to the circusmsism with a message and Paul was the apostle to the uncircumcism.
They brought the same message. Acts 2.38, Acts 4.12, Acts 8.12, Acts 10.44-48, Acts 19.1-5.
AVBunyan said:
"I believe they had the exact same message to preach and I believe the whole bible, not just the parts I want to pick and choose."
I trust I can show you that not until later in Acts were their messages even close to being similar. Acts is a transition from the kingdom age gospel with Peter leading the way to the gospel of grace with Paul taking over later after Acts 13 or so. Big transition from Peter to Paul - Israel as a nation to the revealation of the mystery given only to Paul (Ephesisans).
Same post as above. Everyone thinks Israel became a nation when? In 1948? They grew into a "nation" when they were in bondage in Egypt thousands of years ago. 600,000 men of fighting age left Egypt not including women and children. That is a nation, not just a "big" family. Man just documented their nationhood in 1948.
AVBunyan said:
Final thought - I believe all the Bible - I read all the Bible - I throw nothing out and run from none of it. I understand II Tim. 3:16 and Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning,
but I know that the first thing scripture is for is for doctrine - II Tim. 3:16 - what I am trying to clear up is doctrine - poor job but that is my intent - I am seeking not to leave or throw out any books or teachings so as to avoid something. I mainly study Paul's epistles (especially his prison epistles) but I read and believe it all juding all by Paul (II Tim. 2:7) - now putting it all where it belongs to whom it belongs is where the work and study comes in - II Tim. 2:15
Again, I believe Peter and Paul preached the exact same message. The only difference is Peter was commisioned to preach to the Jews(yet he opened the door for salvation to the gentiles) and Paul was commisioned to preach to the gentiles(even though he started off preaching to the Jews).
