Acts 18:4

[janxharris]

Paul quoted Deuteronomy to believers.

No, Paul wrote to Roman Christians and discussed the unsaved status of many of his kinsmen. With regard to their submitting to God's (he still has his kinsmen in mind, but it applies to all the unsaved) righteousness (rather than establishing their own), Paul cites Deuteronomy to show that it's not too difficult.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not at all. It would only be inconsistent if Paul was mad at God if some men were not saved. There's no indication that this is the fact.

What does being mad have to do with anything? Just another extraneous and irrelevant comment.

Again, RT cannot prove from Scripture that Christ didn't die for everyone. And cannot refute the claim that He did die for everyone.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul quoted Deuteronomy to believers.

Did Paul ever teach believers how to witness, and what to say? Of course. Using Scripture, of course.

Why did Paul quote Deut to believers? For what purpose?

 

[janxharris]

Did Paul ever teach believers how to witness, and what to say? Of course. Using Scripture, of course.

Why did Paul quote Deut to believers? For what purpose?

Indeed - worth listening to I'd say:

Galatians 1:11-12
I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

 

[Hentenza]

What does being mad have to do with anything? Just another extraneous and irrelevant comment.

Again, RT cannot prove from Scripture that Christ didn't die for everyone. And cannot refute the claim that He did die for everyone.

If Christ died and atoned for the sins of everyone then everyone would be saved. Is everyone saved?

 

[Hammster]

No, Paul wrote to Roman Christians and discussed the unsaved status of many of his kinsmen. With regard to their submitting to God's (he still has his kinsmen in mind, but it applies to all the unsaved) righteousness (rather than establishing their own), Paul cites Deuteronomy to show that it's not too difficult.

This is written to believers:

For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:5-9 ESV)

 

[Hammster]

What does being mad have to do with anything? Just another extraneous and irrelevant comment.

Again, RT cannot prove from Scripture that Christ didn't die for everyone. And cannot refute the claim that He did die for everyone.

It has everything to do with it. Paul wasn't going against God's will by wanting his kinsmen saved. It was his desire. But he wasn't upset with God when it didn't happen.

Again, FG cannot prove from scripture that Christ died for everyone. And cannot refute the claim that He died for the elect.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If Christ died and atoned for the sins of everyone then everyone would be saved. Is everyone saved?

This is a common misconception by the reformed. His death did not, nor was it supposed to, save anyone. It IS the basis for who God saves, justifies, adopts as sons.

But the requirement for salvation, justification and adoption as sons is faith, not His death. If His death accomplished these things, faith would have no place.

Are you comfortable with that? I'm not.

Requirements:

For salvation:
Mark 16:16
16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12
12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14
14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

For justification:

Acts 13:39 Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

Rom 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference.

Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Rom 3:28, 30
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Gal 2:16
16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Gal 3:8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."

Gal 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

1 Cor 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

For adoption as sons:

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.


As well, eternal life is also dependent upon faith:

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.


None of these verses has any meaning if Christ's death accomplished salvation, justification, or adoption as sons.

 

[Hammster]

Did Paul ever teach believers how to witness, and what to say? Of course. Using Scripture, of course.

Why did Paul quote Deut to believers? For what purpose?

He was explaining salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It has everything to do with it. Paul wasn't going against God's will by wanting his kinsmen saved. It was his desire. But he wasn't upset with God when it didn't happen.

There is NO issue at all about Paul's emotional state. If he knew that Christ hadn't died for everyone, there is NO REASON for his wanting everyone saved. That would be against God's will, and Paul, of all people, knew more of God's will than most, for sure. And your posts haven't even faced that issue.

Again, FG cannot prove from scripture that Christ died for everyone. And cannot refute the claim that He died for the elect.

Sure, turn around the charge for RT to prove that He didn't die for everyone.

Yet, there are clear verses that SAY that He did die for everyone. It's just that RT denies that reality.

Heb 2:9 explicitly says so. The vast majority of English translations indicate that the writer meant "everyone" rather than the elect/etc.

With clear verses SAYING that He died for everyone, and ZERO verses that say that He didn't die for everyone, RT has no leg to stand upon.

 

[FreeGrace2]

He was explaining salvation.

How do you know? How do you know that he wasn't teaching believers how to evangelize?

 

[Hammster]

There is NO issue at all about Paul's emotional state. If he knew that Christ hadn't died for everyone, there is NO REASON for his wanting everyone saved. That would be against God's will, and Paul, of all people, knew more of God's will than most, for sure. And your posts haven't even faced that issue.


Sure, turn around the charge for RT to prove that He didn't die for everyone.

Yet, there are clear verses that SAY that He did die for everyone. It's just that RT denies that reality.

Heb 2:9 explicitly says so. The vast majority of English translations indicate that the writer meant "everyone" rather than the elect/etc.

With clear verses SAYING that He died for everyone, and ZERO verses that say that He didn't die for everyone, RT has no leg to stand upon.

I understand why you think there's a contradiction. But it goes to the fact that you have an inaccurate view of Calvinism, and you won't let it go despite any arguments to the contrary.

 

[Hammster]

How do you know? How do you know that he wasn't teaching believers how to evangelize?

Because there's nothing in the text to indicate it. Unlike FGism, Calvinism relies heavily on context.

 

[janxharris]

This is written to believers:

For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:5-9 ESV)

Is Paul still discussing the point he brought up in v.3 where he is talking about his kinsmen?
Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.

v.5
For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says...

Paul is right on the same subject - righteousness through faith rather than the law (establishing one's own righteousness). Paul still has his kinsmen in view.

 

[Hammster]

Is Paul still discussing the point he brought up in v.3 where he is talking about his kinsmen?
Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness.

v.5
For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says...

Paul is right on the same subject - righteousness through faith rather than the law (establishing one's own righteousness). Paul still has his kinsmen in view.

Maybe. But it's not written to them, is it. It's written to believers as an explanation.

 

[janxharris]

Maybe. But it's not written to them, is it. It's written to believers as an explanation.

You cannot justify the exclusion of those whom Paul cites as the subjects of his discourse from what he says about them. There is nothing about letter writing that precludes this - even if they are not the addresses.

It is quite astonishing the lengths you will go to in determining to whom Paul's words had it's relevance when Paul himself is completely unconcerned by such fuss. Does Paul say, 'Oh, but of course, I didn't mean this to apply to such and such...even though I have JUST BEEN TALKING ABOUT THEM'?

You are showing desperation in your attempt to salvage UE and LA.

 

[Hammster]

You cannot justify the exclusion of those whom Paul cites as the subjects of his discourse from what he says about them. There is nothing about letter writing that precludes this - even if they are not the addresses.

It is quite astonishing the lengths you will go to in determining to whom Paul's words had it's relevance when Paul himself is completely unconcerned by such fuss. Does Paul say, 'Oh, but of course, I didn't mean this to apply to such and such...even though I have JUST BEEN TALKING ABOUT THEM'?

You are showing desperation in your attempt to salvage UE and LA.

Please show me where I've taken Paul's words out of context and applied them to someone other than whom he wrote to.

 

[janxharris]

Please show me where I've taken Paul's words out of context and applied them to someone other than whom he wrote to.

What you have done is to decide to exclude those whom Paul discusses but who are not the addressees. You have no basis or reason for doing this other than to prop up doctrines that are not even found in scripture.

Obviously your theology is imperilled if Paul also intended his sentiments regarding his kinsmen to be directly addressed to them. Tellingly, Paul would have guarded against this if his theology had been the same as yours...

He didn't and it wasn't.

 

[Hentenza]

This is a common misconception by the reformed. His death did not, nor was it supposed to, save anyone. It IS the basis for who God saves, justifies, adopts as sons.

Christ death and resurrection is the basis for the gospel and what constitutes the atonement. If Christ atonement is not supposed to save anyone then the gospel is false.

BTW- this is a typical misconception of arminians.

But the requirement for salvation, justification and adoption as sons is faith, not His death. If His death accomplished these things, faith would have no place.

Yep. And God knows exactly who will have faith. Of course, now you are going to attempt to explain to me what foreknowledge means.

Are you comfortable with that? I'm not.

Then more study is in order.

Requirements:

For salvation:
Mark 16:16
16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Is baptism required for salvation? Oops, now you are adding to faith which above you said it was the only requirement for salvation.

Luke 8:12
12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Yep. Unfortunately these are not believers. Keep reading the parable of the seed and you will arrive to those whose seed landed in good soil which is those with saving faith.

Acts 4:12
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Yes, there is salvation in no one else. No one is arguing otherwise.

Acts 11:14
14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Yes. And those who God knows will have faith will listen to His word and be saved. Perseverance of the saints.

Acts 16:31
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Yes. And those who God knows will have faith will listen to His word and be saved. Perseverance of the saints.

Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

So now you believe in lordship salvation? Are you adding again to faith?

Rom 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Who are those who will believe? Does God know who they are?

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Yep. Faith IS a gift of God. Faith is not a gift of man.

2 Tim 3:15
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Yep. Does everyone that read scripture get the wisdom to be saved?

1 Peter 1:5
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

lol Protected by the power of God? Right? Soooooo.........

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

Yep.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

God has chosen? Am I reading this right? Does the verse say that God chose you or that you chose God?

For justification:

Acts 13:39 Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

Rom 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference.

Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Rom 3:28, 30
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Gal 2:16
16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Gal 3:8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."

Gal 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

1 Cor 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

For adoption as sons:

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.


As well, eternal life is also dependent upon faith:

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

None of these verses has any meaning if Christ's death accomplished salvation, justification, or adoption as sons.

Every single one of these verse do NOT make sense if Christ atonement is not sufficient for salvation.

I cut a few of the verses that you posted because of redundancy. Many of these verses teach exactly the opposite of what you are teaching.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I understand why you think there's a contradiction. But it goes to the fact that you have an inaccurate view of Calvinism, and you won't let it go despite any arguments to the contrary.

OK, please tell me what my "inaccurate view" is of Calvinism. I don't believe that is possible.

Then, please explain HOW it is inaccurate.

This should be interesting.