Accusation that Jesus was serving the devil

cloudyday2

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Here's the thing.. If they had evidence He was serving satan they would have his killed ASAP. (look at how he did died, they got him on a trumped p charge of claiming to be the messiah which is a far lessor crime than working for the devil) and they had him crucified.
According to the gospels, only the Roman authorities could carry-out executions.

What i see is a impotent religious establishment being userpt by not only good deeds but by things that will over turn the corruption ingrained into a system that demands a man's death for doing good deeds in the name of God and bringing people to the faith.
Jesus was weakening the faith of Jews in the Law of Moses by brazenly and publicly violating the rules for the Sabbath. This was exactly what might have been expected from a false Messiah. The devil often dressed-up sin to seem like righteousness.

Look what Jesus said that proves He was working for God..
27 You say that I use the power of Satan to force out demons. If that is true, then what power do your people use when they force out demons? (this is rhetorical as they could not force any of these demons out. these people where sometimes stricken from birth with their afflictions for the sole purpose that everyone in the city knew these people where not plants or faking it.
Here Jesus is brought a man undoubtedly that has gone before the jewish leadership many many times and they could do nothing. But here with a word Christ Envokes the power of God. Something in their bibles only men of the highest regaurd could do. Men like the father's of their faith.. expelled the demons and sets the man right by a word.
To me, this defense made by Jesus seems pathetic. I must be missing something.

We probably aren't going to reach an agreement. I don't want to wear you out with endless arguing.
 
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fwGod

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Most people are familiar with the scene in the synoptic gospels when the opponents of Jesus suggested that he was serving the devil and that was why his miracles often challenged a strict interpretation of the Jewish Law. Jesus responded according to Mark 3:23-27 RSV as follows:
'23 And he called them to him, and said to them in parables, “How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. 26 And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end. 27 But no one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man; then indeed he may plunder his house.'
Bible Gateway passage: Mark 3:23-27 - Revised Standard Version

Does this seem like a very weak argument to anybody else?
From an agnostic pov, I guess so.

But from a Christian point of view, and those religious leaders of that day.. it's a very wise response that was sufficient to the audience.

They had accused Jesus of using satanic means to minister to the people. Jesus told them that their accusations were logical fallacy.
Modern Christians routinely accuse miracle workers from other religions of serving the devil (knowingly or unknowingly). Empowering a false messiah to perform miracles in a way that would lead the Jews to disobey the Jewish Law would be a natural strategy for the devil.
The Jewish law was not being upheld by the religious leaders. They made excuses for not doing their duty to the people. And they demonized Jesus who was doing the will of God on behalf of the people.
The expected behavior of the Antichrist is an example of this strategy. In our modern world the strategy is called a "false flag" quoting from Wikipedia:
'A false flag is a covert operation designed to deceive; the deception creates the appearance of a particular party, group, or nation being responsible for some activity, disguising the actual source of responsibility. ... The term today extends beyond naval encounters to include countries that organize attacks on themselves and make the attacks appear to be by enemy nations or terrorists, thus giving the nation that was supposedly attacked a pretext for domestic repression and foreign military aggression.'
( False flag - Wikipedia )

Any thoughts? It seems to me that Jesus could have responded better.
Since Jesus only spoke what He heard from the Father and he did not speak on his own authority.. Jesus said exactly the right thing.
I would also be interested in discussing better responses that Jesus might have given. Maybe there isn't any better response. It seems that there should be a better response, but nothing is coming to mind yet.
How could any Christian think that they could improve on God?
 
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cloudyday2

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From an agnostic pov, I guess so.

But from a Christian point of view, and those religious leaders of that day.. it's a very wise response that was sufficient to the audience.
What about from a Jewish point of view, because his audience was Jewish?

They had accused Jesus of using satanic means to minister to the people. Jesus told them that their accusations were logical fallacy.
How was it a logical fallacy for Jesus to have been a false Messiah serving the devil?

Since Jesus only spoke what He heard from the Father and he did not speak on his own authority.. Jesus said exactly the right thing.

How could any Christian think that they could improve on God?
If the words the gospels placed on the lips of Jesus were flawed then what?
 
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fwGod

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What about from a Jewish point of view, because his audience was Jewish?
Yes it was. If you don't recognize anything Jewish about what He said, that's not my fault.

How was it a logical fallacy for Jesus to have been a false Messiah serving the devil?
He wasn't the false Messiah. Just because the religious Jewish leaders of that day and this.. are blinded as to His true identity.. it in no way means that He is what they say.

Jesus is similar to Joseph in Egypt in that his step brothers didn't recognize him at first. It was likely because they believed that putting him into the well and leaving him for dead, resulted in his death. So it was the farthest thing from their minds that he had survived. And the farthest thing from their minds that he'd have the second highest position in Egypt. They thought that he'd boasted pridefully of his dream.
But there they stood in the fulfillment of it.
If the words the gospels placed on the lips of Jesus were flawed then what?
Your if is your own. Nothing that Jesus said was flawed. Just as the dream that Joseph had was not flawed.
 
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cloudyday2

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Your if is your own. Nothing that Jesus said was flawed. Just as the dream that Joseph had was not flawed.
O.k. that is fine.

I like your Joseph - Jesus link. There are some interesting similarities in their stories.
 
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drich0150

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According to the gospels, only the Roman authorities could carry-out executions.
Which is why I said "They (The Jewish Leadership) had him Executed. Meaning the Jews did not do this they turned him over to the state./Rome..

Jesus was weakening the faith of Jews in the Law of Moses by brazenly and publicly violating the rules for the Sabbath.
It wasn't the law of moses. The Law of moses says to kept the sabbath holy/set apart for the purposes of God which the primary being rest. Jesus for the purpose of bring God glory as per the law of moses did so by healing a man with nothing more than words.

no work was done outside the work Of God Himself. But the laws of tradition/wicked men in the name of God stated no efforts could be expended meaning the law of men were replacing the laws of God to the point where the corrupt religious leads could no longer see/understand that God himself was working with in the framework of what the law intended. They could not see that by expending the law to no activity whatsoever they were in violation of the law's primary purpose and that was to set the day aside for God. meaning those deed which serve God (not man) were not excluded here.
This was exactly what might have been expected from a false Messiah. The devil often dressed-up sin to seem like righteousness.
but again... to what end. Meaninghow does it serve satan to do a deed that will bring people closer to God? You will not allow yourself to lok beyond the sandels of the pharisees. That is your problem you have in your heart invalidated the gospel message and are looking for reasons to also invalidate it. You yourself point this out to me when you told me to look at this senerio from the point of the jewish leadership. Then admonished me for carrying on into the christian narritive.

Well here is your challenge look at it from the perspective of Christ. yes look at it from the christian narritive BECAUSE it is from that position that the gospel was written.

In the long run this miracle was done not by Christ but by God. and because it seemed to violate the sabbath showed how far the law of the pharisees and sadducees departed from the intent the law was given to moses. again Keep the Sabbath and make it holy. This was a big open invitation to stop the chores of living one day a week and honor God with it. Remember the charge from God was to keep the sabbath holy. The charge from the jewish leadership was to do not work on the sabbath. Jesus with a word made a man Whole and gave the work honor to God. this is the embodiment of doing a holy work on a day set aside for holy work. But again the kicker was God did the work through the word of Christ. so the work was sanctified meaning it was approved by God as being a work suitable for the sabbath.

But the evil leaders did not see this, they only saw a violation of their rules and not what God had intended. They could not see the hand of god in this. Because they were nt of God.

This was the reason for the remarks of Christ.
He knew doing nothing and leaving the sabbath as the jewish leadership established it was the true evil. The law as it stood was a wedge between the people and God. So Christ with power which only could come from God healed a life long cripple man whom everyone knew to be legit crippled. (argument could be made about christ healing amputee with this guy as he grew new limbs.) But again only by the word of Christ but by the power of God. Meaning if the pharisees and the leadership were not evil men they would have known the words of Christ =/= God's power alone. God had to ok or go along with the usage of this power. and if his power being used on the sabbath was wrong he would not have allowed this usage.

Which bring's us to Christ's comment. A house divide can not stand.

meaning the sabbath belonged to lucifer in it's current man made laws about doing no kind of work whatsoever. to the point they where enditing God himself for breaking this law of satan of doing no work on the sabbath.

So again why would Satan break his own house just to empower jesus to do a deed that futher undermined a religious authority Jesus/ God wanted gone?

To me, this defense made by Jesus seems pathetic. I must be missing something.

We probably aren't going to reach an agreement. I don't want to wear you out with endless arguing.
I think what you are missing is that the antichrist/satan is still under the authority of God. You seem to have too much greek and roman mythos ted up into your christian understanding of satan and his role. Satan is not a god he is not independent he can only work within the limits God himself allows.

IE Read the book of Job. Nothing in that book happened to job without careful measuring and consideration. Meaning satan was not allowed to go beyond what God allowed. Here too the antichrist is also limited to what God will allow. Meaning the antichrist could not do more than what God would allow. the anti christ could not do a good deed that would mortally wound the church by making it look like it came from God UNLESS that is what God wanted in the first place. and if it is as God wants it to play out.. then again how is it ultimately a bad thing? The panultimate goal is to worship and love God, and not religion Judaism became a method of worshiping the method of worship and had no room for God in it. if we the church can be mortally wounded by an anti-christ's good deed then we too have become the thing God hated about judaism.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Any thoughts? It seems to me that Jesus could have responded better.
He Did.

It is much more clear in Hebrew, and maybe in Greek, than in English. (ways of life, meanings of verbs, religious experiences, knowledge of TORAH, so many ways)

The ones Jesus was speaking to 'knew' very clearly and very well , as Yahuweh Planned, what Jesus was saying. Even when their knowledge was in error, and opposed to Jesus and against Yahuweh,
Jesus' Words were exactly as The Perfect Sovereign Creator directed Him, with no hesitation , no doubt, and no deviation.

i.e. Exactly and Perfectly Obedient to the One Jesus Served.
 
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cloudyday2

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I think what you are missing is that the antichrist/satan is still under the authority of God. You seem to have too much greek and roman mythos ted up into your christian understanding of satan and his role. Satan is not a god he is not independent he can only work within the limits God himself allows.

IE Read the book of Job. Nothing in that book happened to job without careful measuring and consideration. Meaning satan was not allowed to go beyond what God allowed. Here too the antichrist is also limited to what God will allow. Meaning the antichrist could not do more than what God would allow. the anti christ could not do a good deed that would mortally wound the church by making it look like it came from God UNLESS that is what God wanted in the first place. and if it is as God wants it to play out.. then again how is it ultimately a bad thing? The panultimate goal is to worship and love God, and not religion Judaism became a method of worshiping the method of worship and had no room for God in it. if we the church can be mortally wounded by an anti-christ's good deed then we too have become the thing God hated about judaism.
Here is Matthew 24:24 RSV
"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 24 - Revised Standard Version
 
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cloudyday2

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He Did.

It is much more clear in Hebrew, and maybe in Greek, than in English. (ways of life, meanings of verbs, religious experiences, knowledge of TORAH, so many ways)

The ones Jesus was speaking to 'knew' very clearly and very well , as Yahuweh Planned, what Jesus was saying. Even when their knowledge was in error, and opposed to Jesus and against Yahuweh,
Jesus' Words were exactly as The Perfect Sovereign Creator directed Him, with no hesitation , no doubt, and no deviation.

i.e. Exactly and Perfectly Obedient to the One Jesus Served.
My understanding is that Jesus spoke Aramaic rather than Hebrew, and in most cases it is impossible to reconstruct the original Aramaic from the Koine Greek of the authors of the gospels. So let's forget about Hebrew and Aramaic and focus on Greek.

So give some examples of the clarity that was lost in translation from Greek to English. I'm skeptical of your claim, because I assume the translators made every effort to preserve the spirit of the Greek. There must be commentaries that clarify by explaining some of those details you mentioned. I am skeptical, but I try to be open-minded.
 
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drich0150

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yeshuaslavejeff

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So give some examples of the clarity that was lost in translation from Greek to English. I'm skeptical of your claim, because I assume the translators made every effort to preserve the spirit of the Greek. There must be commentaries that clarify by explaining some of those details you mentioned. I am skeptical, but I try to be open-minded.

REMAIN skeptical about those things ...... it is much better to doubt them than to trust them (commentaries, etc)

My understanding is that Jesus spoke Aramaic rather than Hebrew, and in most cases it is impossible to reconstruct the original Aramaic from the Koine Greek of the authors of the gospels. So let's forget about Hebrew and Aramaic and focus on Greek.
That is not true as far as I know. Several , (unknown, unreferenced, unremembered)
in the past have correctly and accurately restored the correct wording with Yahuweh's Inspiration,
but of course they are black listed or not accepted since they must go against a lot of tradition (most 'scholars' seem to accept tradition over accuracy).

It is a simple yet sometimes long search for the truth before it is found,
and requires not only seeking the truth, and keeping on seeking the truth,
but also doing so trusting the Heavenly Father for Him to allow, permit, or bring to fruition the results of finding and understanding the truth, and knowing it -
as He Says Clearly in His Word, as is His Plan and Purpose (even HIS GOOD PLEASURE).
 
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