Accountable for our beliefs

[quatona]

Wow! this choosing to believe somethig is much easier than I thought !

Yeah, in the beginning it might take some willpower, but once you´ve gotten used to it, you will have no problem arbitrarily and instantaneously choosing any opinion you wish `(and even those you don´t wish to acquire).
I think it´s called "spontaneity". At least that´s what I just chose to believe. Actually, now that I´ve thought twice I believe "bananaboat" is a more appropriate term.
A word of warning, though: Initially (like it´s the case with every new toy) you will be tempted to overdo it, but too frequent changes of belief can be irritating to the persons around you. At least try to be consistent within one and the same sentence...or don´t.

 

[Telephone]

Yeah, in the beginning it might take some willpower, but once you´ve gotten used to it, you will have no problem arbitrarily and instantaneously choosing any opinion you wish `(and even those you don´t wish to acquire).
I think it´s called "spontaneity". At least that´s what I just chose to believe. Actually, now that I´ve thought twice I believe "bananaboat" is a more appropriate term.
A word of warning, though: Initially (like it´s the case with every new toy) you will be tempted to overdo it, but too frequent changes of belief can be irritating to the persons around you. At least try to be consistent within one and the same sentence...or don´t.

Thanks for the tips quatona.

I have just bananaboated my way into Christianity, I now believe the true word of the bible, I believe Jesus Christ (I choose to believe his real name is Tony Christ) died for mankinds sins and I also believe I shall, on death, be taken to heaven by angels and spend an eternity in the warm embrace of a benign loving god.

Wow! this is great, maybe I was a little hasty decrying the notion that one chooses their beliefs.


Telephone.


P.S. I have also chosen to disbelieve the Effiel Tower is in Paris, I now believe it is on a small island in the South Pacific called "Whatwouldsantado Isalnd"

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Haha!

 

[icbeckyc]

You are fallible, you are human like all of us you may be wrong, you are not inerrant, you are not omniscient, you are capable of being in error, your belief in god may be mistaken.

But she has chosen to stick with her belief in God. Even though with all your wisdom you have tried to tell her it is possibly wrong and she can be making an error. But she is still chosing to believe. You are, aren't you Lilly? Yet with all her wisdom you are chosing to stick with your belief. Unless there is something to this bannanaboat thing. lol

 

[TooCurious]

Actually, you know what's funny, is that I didn't put a single word in your mouth. I was basically just telling you my own opinion about how you and many others like you who I have talked to, that think that evidence can only be believed one way, it seems, and that evidence compels one to believe a certain way. It has really nothing to do with what you were saying and more to do about my preconceived notions being correct.

So you're admitting that your statement had nothing to do with what I actually said, and you are further clarifying that you were *not* claiming that I said that evidence should cause everyone to agree with me? Okay. It would have been preferable had you said so the first time.

What's funny is that realization is, in essence a choice. The phrase "I came to a realization..." is the same as "I chose to realize.."

That isn't true at all. A realization either occurs to you, or it doesn't. As much as quoting from a dictionary can sometimes be problematic, I think it's important here to establish what the word "realize" means.

realize, v.: 1. To comprehend completely or correctly.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=realize

This was the definition I found most relevant to our discussion. The take-home point here is that "realization" is abou comprehension, not about choice. A realization is NOT the same thing as a choice; often one may realize something other than one wanted or would have chosen to know, if one had the option.

You must not understand that you can not realize something until you come to the free will choice to realize it.

I don't understand it because it is not the case.

Nothing "makes" you or "forces" you to believe in something, you must decide that your conclusion is in line with the evidence.

But what has the evidence to do with anything, if belief is a "choice"? If you can truly choose what to believe, then you don't need evidence. If you need evidence in order to believe, then it isn't a choice. I don't know much more simply I can state that.

Decision leads to a choice and if anyone is "made" to believe something through evidence, then they must be CD-R because their beliefs are being written on them and they have no control. Are you a CD-R? No, you are a human being.

Are you a giraffe?

What's funny is that your perception of what is false is only based on opinions from conclusions that you drew up through experiences, yet not everyone agrees with you; so, evidence cannot simply "make" someone believe because there are so many conclusions that can be drawn from the same evidence, which people through their unique experiences decide are right.

People understand things differently. I never disputed this. Different individuals have different notions of what constitutes valid evidence, and what that evidence means. That doesn't mean they don't require something which they find to be persuasive evidence in order to believe something.

You, also, bring up a point that people need evidence to believe, which is totally false. People do not require evidence to believe something is real.

Are you a giraffe?

Take a look at the Geologic Column, there is no evidence for it. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary, yet people are adamant to believe it.

Just because the evidence for a thing does not persuade you, that doesn't mean that said evidence doesn't exist. It means only that your understanding of "sufficient evidence" differs from others' understanding.

People believe in black holes, even I believe in black holes; yet, there really is no evidence to support the concept except the word of scientists.

The scientists have evidence. It may not be ironclad yet, but it strikes me as sufficiently persuasive at the moment.

People believe in crop circles, yet we know that artists make them.

Those people have what they believe is evidence. A thing need not be true for someone to be persuaded by it.

People chose to believe everything regardless of evidence.

They have what they understand as evidence; it's just not *good* evidence.

I have already said the same point over and over, either you have an understanding or not because I was hoping to move on in this debate, yet you and Telephone keeping me saying the same thing over and over.

We keep saying it because you keep not getting it. As many times as we've tried to explain it, you keep insisting that you can choose to believe a thing--yet you haven't proven it yet. I already stated that I will take your word as truth if you tell me that you have honestly chosen to completely believe that you are a giraffe. You haven't yet.

What I don't understand is that I am describing a very basic concept of modern psychology and I didn't expect such an opposition to something that is widely accepted by the psychological and scientific communities.

Source, please? I've never seen it discussed in psychological or scientific circles that one chooses one's beliefs without any form of evidence.

 

[quatona]

Thanks for the tips quatona.

I have just bananaboated my way into Christianity, I now believe the true word of the bible, I believe Jesus Christ (I choose to believe his real name is Tony Christ) died for mankinds sins and I also believe I shall, on death, be taken to heaven by angels and spend an eternity in the warm embrace of a benign loving god.

Wow! this is great, maybe I was a little hasty decrying the notion that one chooses their beliefs.


Telephone.


P.S. I have also chosen to disbelieve the Effiel Tower is in Paris, I now believe it is on a small island in the South Pacific called "Whatwouldsantado Isalnd"

Congratulations for the quick progress in your abilities, Telephone!
But there´s more amazing stuff waiting for you.
On the advanced level we will learn how to not merely "choose beliefs", but how to "choose which beliefs we choose to choose".

 

[elman]

Yeah, in the beginning it might take some willpower, but once you´ve gotten used to it, you will have no problem arbitrarily and instantaneously choosing any opinion you wish `(and even those you don´t wish to acquire).
I think it´s called "spontaneity". At least that´s what I just chose to believe. Actually, now that I´ve thought twice I believe "bananaboat" is a more appropriate term.
A word of warning, though: Initially (like it´s the case with every new toy) you will be tempted to overdo it, but too frequent changes of belief can be irritating to the persons around you. At least try to be consistent within one and the same sentence...or don´t.

"that´s what I just chose to believe." That is a very interesting statment from you Quatona.

 

[elman]

Reciprocal altruism.

I am glad to know that is where we get it. Now if I just knew what that was.

We judge what we consider reasonable treatment of others mostly on how we would like others to treat us.

That sounds close to what a Jewish prophet said a couple of thousand years ago.

 

[quatona]

"that´s what I just chose to believe." That is a very interesting statment from you Quatona.

Is it? I choose to be surprised by seeing you choosing to find that interesting. Haven´t you chosen to notice that I have chosen to choose to change my mind completely on that matter, as one can easily choose to notice from all my recent posts in this thread?

 

[Telephone]

Congratulations for the quick progress in your abilities, Telephone!
But there´s more amazing stuff waiting for you.
On the advanced level we will learn how to not merely "choose beliefs", but how to "choose which beliefs we choose to choose".

I can't wait !

Or can I ?

I choose to believe I cannot wait.

What do I do ?

help !

 

[Telephone]

I am glad to know that is where we get it. Now if I just knew what that was.

Why do you not simply choose to believe you know what reciprocal altruism means, this may not make you undertand but at least you will believe you understand (apparently!).

That sounds close to what a Jewish prophet said a couple of thousand years ago.

Well it turns out (by your definition) he was wrong and god is the real source.

What point are you trying to make here !!?

 

[Telephone]

x

 

[elman]

Quote
Originally Posted by: elman
I am glad to know that is where we get it. Now if I just knew what that was.


Why do you not simply choose to believe you know what reciprocal altruism means, this may not make you undertand but at least you will believe you understand (apparently!).

Why do you argue against a postion no one is espousing on free will? Perhaps a better question, why do you chose to believe people are espousing this position on free will when they are not?

Quote
Originally Posted by: elman

That sounds close to what a Jewish prophet said a couple of thousand years ago.

Well it turns out (by your definition) he was wrong and god is the real source.

Where did you get this definition of mine that would make Jesus wrong because what He said was from God? What definition is that?

 

[elman]

Is it? I choose to be surprised by seeing you choosing to find that interesting. Haven´t you chosen to notice that I have chosen to choose to change my mind completely on that matter, as one can easily choose to notice from all my recent posts in this thread?

Well good for you.

 

[JustJack!]

We do have some choice concerning our beliefs. We choose how to interpret the evidence, and the meaning of that evidence, and even what constitutes evidence.

But one can not choose to "believe" something without sufficient reasoning or, something that contradicts what we already know.

I look up at the sky, and see it's blue. I can tell people it's red, and even pretend to them that I see a red sky. But the truth is, I know, deep down inside, the sky is blue.

Christianity contradicts what I already know to be true, it doesn't ease those contradictions, and it doesn't provide sufficeint reasoning as to why I should trust "God", and the a book, written by men, claims Him to be.

I have an issue w/ 'E'. No one can outwit God, correct, but having choices and choosing isn't outwitting Him. What He knows is what we have willfully chosen. Thus we are responsible.

But He's known it since the begining of time, so I never made any choice. My choices were preordained by an omnicient and infallible God. I have no "choice", other than the illusion of choice, when in fact, my life was scripted before I was born.

Free will and pre-destination can not co-exist.

 

[icbeckyc]

We do have some choice concerning our beliefs. We choose how to interpret the evidence, and the meaning of that evidence, and even what constitutes evidence.

But one can not choose to "believe" something without sufficient reasoning or, something that contradicts what we already know.

That is a very good explanation. I am more than willing to accept that.

But He's known it since the begining of time, so I never made any choice. My choices were preordained by an omnicient and infallible God. I have no "choice", other than the illusion of choice, when in fact, my life was scripted before I was born.

Free will and pre-destination can not co-exist.

But God did not preordain our choices. God just knows what we are going to choose. He doesn't make us choose or change our choices. He knows them.

 

[elman]

We do have some choice concerning our beliefs. We choose how to interpret the evidence, and the meaning of that evidence, and even what constitutes evidence.

But one can not choose to "believe" something without sufficient reasoning or, something that contradicts what we already know.

I look up at the sky, and see it's blue. I can tell people it's red, and even pretend to them that I see a red sky. But the truth is, I know, deep down inside, the sky is blue.

Christianity contradicts what I already know to be true, it doesn't ease those contradictions, and it doesn't provide sufficeint reasoning as to why I should trust "God", and the a book, written by men, claims Him to be.



But He's known it since the begining of time, so I never made any choice. My choices were preordained by an omnicient and infallible God. I have no "choice", other than the illusion of choice, when in fact, my life was scripted before I was born.

Free will and pre-destination can not co-exist.

It depends on your definitions. Free will meaning the ability to chose to love your fellow man or not, can exist with God knowing ahead of time what you are going to chose to do. In that case your choice is your choice and not God's choice, and therefore not an illusion. Exactly what do you know to be true that is contradicted by Christianity? I suspect that either you don't really know whatever to be true, or Christianity does not really contradict it. It may be a perverted view of Christianity that contradicts it, if in fact it is true.

 

[JustJack!]

But God did not preordain our choices. God just knows what we are going to choose. He doesn't make us choose or change our choices. He knows them.

His knowledge of my choices preordains them. I can not choose contrary to an omnicient, infallible God, and show Him to be wrong.

Free will and predestination can not co-exist. Think about that for a while.

It depends on your definitions. Free will meaning the ability to chose to love your fellow man or not,

Free will meaning freedom of choice. Any choice, every choice.

...can exist with God knowing ahead of time what you are going to chose to do.

No it can't. If God knows I will choose to have a PB&J for lunch stops me from making any other choice. If God said I'm going to have a PB&J, and I have a ham sandwich, then He is in fact, not God because of how you define God.

In that case your choice is your choice and not God's choice, and therefore not an illusion.

If the choice was known, and made before I was even born, how is it possibly "my" choice, much less a choice at all.

Exactly what do you know to be true that is contradicted by Christianity?

Well, one example would be ya'll trying to tell me that I choose my choices even though my choice are predestined by an all knowing being that can't be wrong...ever.

People choose to be gay, pro-choice is pro abortion, there are no good reason to not believe in Christ, ect, ect.

 

[elman]

His knowledge of my choices preordains them. I can not choose contrary to an omnicient, infallible God, and show Him to be wrong

.
No God will not be wrong. He will always be correct in knowing what you are going to do. This does not mean He made you do it.

Free will meaning freedom of choice. Any choice, every choice.

Nobody saying they have free will says there are no limitations on what we can do. Free will when I talk about it is the ability to love others or not love others.

No it can't. If God knows I will choose to have a PB&J for lunch stops me from making any other choice. If God said I'm going to have a PB&J, and I have a ham sandwich, then He is in fact, not God because of how you define God.

God knowing you were going to have a PB&J for lunch does not mean He is going to stop you from having something else. If you were going to have something else, that is what He would have known you were going to chose. I define God as having the ability to create you and I with the ability to chose between loving and not loving and God still at the same time I believe knows what we are going to chose to do. It is part of being all powerful that God is able to do that.

If the choice was known, and made before I was even born, how is it possibly "my" choice, much less a choice at all.

Because knowledge is not the determining factor. You are the determining factor. The knowledge is only of what you are going to determine to do.

Well, one example would be ya'll trying to tell me that I choose my choices even though my choice are predestined by an all knowing being that can't be wrong...ever.

When we say your choices are pre known, we are not saying they are predetermined by God.

People choose to be gay, pro-choice is pro abortion, there are no good reason to not believe in Christ, ect, ect.

[/QUOTE] I am not certain people chose to be gay, but the actions of a gay person are chosen just as the action of a heterosexual person are chosen. Being able to chose and our choices being correct are two different issues.

 

[Telephone]

But God did not preordain our choices. God just knows what we are going to choose. He doesn't make us choose or change our choices. He knows them.

This is correct.

Nobody is claiming he chooses for us.

What is claimed is that god's foreknowledge negates 'true' choice.