Accountable for our beliefs

[AllTalkNoAction]

We find ourselves accountable for what we say and do (or don’t do). God says all will give account to him after the body dies. He says we should cease trying to justify ourselves and let him justify us, i.e. make us right by his standard, which is to think and be like him !

He says to identify with Jesus’ death in our place by being baptised (buried under water), and receive his Life - The Holy Spirit. When you receive this, God immediately leads you in an unlearned prayer language:-
“they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance”. (Acts 2v4,33-39, 10v44-48; 1 Cor. 14)

Now before you is as much of God’s nature as you are willing to allow. People find that instead of weakness, fear or addiction, they have fulfilling purpose, love, and answers that work. God wants to be your best friend rather than your judge.

 

[icbeckyc]

This is correct.

Nobody is claiming he chooses for us.

What is claimed is that god's foreknowledge negates 'true' choice.

Why would this negate choice.

If God didn't want you have to the choice, he would have made it for you. He doesn't interfere in the choices we make. He just has foreknowledge of our decisions.

 

[quatona]

Why would this negate choice.

If God didn't want you have to the choice, he would have made it for you. He doesn't interfere in the choices we make. He just has foreknowledge of our decisions.

What God wants or not is irrelevant for the argument.
If something is predetermined, there is no choice for the one performing the action, no matter whether there´s a God or not.
The fact that God knows everything beforehand, merely indicates that there is no choice for us.

Of course, if you also claim that God is omnipotent - who else could have predetermined everything. But that´s another question.

 

[elman]

What God wants or not is irrelevant for the argument.
If something is predetermined, there is no choice for the one performing the action, no matter whether there´s a God or not.
The fact that God knows everything beforehand, merely indicates that there is no choice for us.

Of course, if you also claim that God is omnipotent - who else could have predetermined everything. But that´s another question.

If God is omnipotent, it is never irrelavant what He wants. If He is omnipotent, He is able to give you the ability to chose and at the same time know what you will chose. Something being predetermined only elimates choice if the determination of that something was done by the one knowing what was going to happen. If the the determination is made by the one other than the one knowing what was going to happen, then there is both predetermination and choice.

 

[quatona]

If God is omnipotent, it is never irrelavant what He wants.

What I said was: It is irrelevant for the argumentation in question.

If He is omnipotent, He is able to give you the ability to chose and at the same time know what you will chose.

Only if you define God out of the realm of logic and into the realm of nonsense.

Something being predetermined only elimates choice if the determination of that something was done by the one knowing what was going to happen. If the the determination is made by the one other than the one knowing what was going to happen, then there is both predetermination and choice.

No. The fact that something is predetermined other than himself, leaves no choice to the person acting. Who or what predetermined it, is completely irrelevant.

 

[icbeckyc]

What God wants or not is irrelevant for the argument.
If something is predetermined, there is no choice for the one performing the action, no matter whether there´s a God or not.
The fact that God knows everything beforehand, merely indicates that there is no choice for us.

Of course, if you also claim that God is omnipotent - who else could have predetermined everything. But that´s another question.

I am trying to see what you are saying and I am having a hard time. I don't think, this time, it's because I am an old stubborn person. lol I can't put God knowing what we are thinking and me not making the decision. I tend to be visual so I am trying to picture senerios. I have my daughter asking me my opinion and I am giving it to her, but I know she doesn't really care and she is going to do the opposite of my opinion (which happens everytime we go clothes shopping ). I know what she is going to choose even before I give my opinion. I think well - when you watch your toddler looking at the breakable on the table they aren't allowed to touch. You sit and hope he won't touch it since you have told him over and over and over NO, but you see it, he's gonna do it and you let him.

Looking at the word omnipotent. Went and looked it up, thought maybe I forgot the defination. Nope it means all powerful. So he could make us change our choices, but does that mean he does. I think I am missing your point here because of the bigger point do we get to choose.

Could you give me something more tangible to see, to describe your point. Thanks

 

[quatona]

I am trying to see what you are saying and I am having a hard time. I don't think, this time, it's because I am an old stubborn person. lol I can't put God knowing what we are thinking and me not making the decision. I tend to be visual so I am trying to picture senerios. I have my daughter asking me my opinion and I am giving it to her, but I know she doesn't really care and she is going to do the opposite of my opinion (which happens everytime we go clothes shopping ). I know what she is going to choose even before I give my opinion. I think well - when you watch your toddler looking at the breakable on the table they aren't allowed to touch. You sit and hope he won't touch it since you have told him over and over and over NO, but you see it, he's gonna do it and you let him.

Nice analogy, but no cigar.
We are not talking about more or less occasional guesses from previous experience, we are talking about 100% perfect foreknowledge of everything.

Looking at the word omnipotent. Went and looked it up, thought maybe I forgot the defination. Nope it means all powerful. So he could make us change our choices, but does that mean he does.

Yes. In case our actions are preknown, they are predetermined. We have two possible scenarios: God is the predetermining person, or someone/something else is.
In the first case: If God doesn´t change his predetermination, then it still applies. He could, but He doesn´t. If he did, He would have known that beforehand, too. Doesn´t affect his omnipotence.
In the second: If God doesn´t change the predetermination caused by something else, this predetermination still applies. He could change it, but He doesn´t. If He would change it, He would have known that all from the beginning, too. Doesn´t affect His omnipotence.
I guess that´s the trouble you get into when you are omniscient and omnipotent. You even know all the changes you yourself will perform. No changes possible. No surprises. No choice for the actors.

I think I am missing your point here because of the bigger point do we get to choose.

I´m afraid I don´t understand this sentence. Sorry.

Could you give me something more tangible to see, to describe your point. Thanks

No, I don´t think I can, sorry. I don´t even seem to understand what was not clear about my initial post. Maybe what I have said above already helps a little. Feel free to ask further questions.

 

[icbeckyc]

Ok quatona, I am looking at your last 2 post and mine. I am trying to think of how to possibly ask my question and point what it is I don't understand.

When you said,"If something is predetermined, there is no choice for the one performing the action, no matter whether there´s a God or not."


Ok, God sees what will happen, and says ok that is what they want to do then ok. Now he allowed it to happen does that mean he made the choice. Is this what you are saying?

Oh man maybe I should give up. My poor little brain hurts now. Too much exercise for one day, and all within a couple of hours.:o lol

 

[elman]

What I said was: It is irrelevant for the argumentation in question.

What I am saying it is relavant to the issue under discussion

Only if you define God out of the realm of logic and into the realm of nonsense.

God being able to give us the ability to love and at the same time know if we are going to be loving or not is not nonsense.

No. The fact that something is predetermined other than himself, leaves no choice to the person acting. Who or what predetermined it, is completely irrelevant.

The whole point is that preknowlegde of what someone is going to chose is not predetermination other than himself. It is predetermintion with his choice in mind.

 

[quatona]

Thanks for your patience, becky, and for trying to clarify.

Ok quatona, I am looking at your last 2 post and mine. I am trying to think of how to possibly ask my question and point what it is I don't understand.

When you said,"If something is predetermined, there is no choice for the one performing the action, no matter whether there´s a God or not."


Ok, God sees what will happen, and says ok that is what they want to do then ok. Now he allowed it to happen does that mean he made the choice. Is this what you are saying?

Yes, about that.
The fact that something is foreknown indicates that it is determined. It does not necessarily indicate that the foreknowing person/entity is the one who determined it.
So far I think this is logical. Now if anyone wants to introduce other attributes of the foreknowing being/entity, this logic may not be violated.

Oh man maybe I should give up. My poor little brain hurts now. Too much exercise for one day, and all within a couple of hours. lol

Sorry! Don´t give up. You did a good job, so far.

 

[quatona]

What I am saying it is relavant to the issue under discussion

See my post to becky.

God being able to give us the ability to love and at the same time know if we are going to be loving or not is not nonsense.

Correct, but to call our being loving or not being loving "choice" is nonsense in this scenario.

The whole point is that preknowlegde of what someone is going to chose is not predetermination other than himself.

I don´t understand the end of this sentence. Sorry.

It is predetermintion with his choice in mind.

I´m a bit lost here.
Preknowledge is whose predetermination with whose choice in whose mind?
Preknowledge isn´t predetermination at all. It merely indicates the preknown action to be predetermined.

 

[icbeckyc]

Correct, but to call our being loving or not being loving "choice" is nonsense in this scenario.

Not necessarily nonsense but irrelevant.






I am stilling thinking about what you said in reference to my last post. Be back soon.

 

[quatona]

Not necessarily nonsense but irrelevant.

I try to use strong words sparingly, but in this case I meant it: Nonsense.
If someone is predetermined, choice is over.
"Choice" signifies a determination, and the same thing cannot be determined twice.

I am stilling thinking about what you said in reference to my last post. Be back soon.

Thanks for considering my thoughts! Take your time!
I might not be able to respond directly, though, because I´m gonna have visitors in a few minutes.
Later.

 

[elman]

God being able to give us the ability to love and at the same time know if we are going to be loving or not is not nonsense.

Correct, but to call our being loving or not being loving "choice" is nonsense in this scenario.

It is impossible to be loving if one has no choice.

The whole point is that preknowlegde of what someone is going to chose is not predetermination other than himself.

I don´t understand the end of this sentence. Sorry.

I will try again. If the predetermination is of me making a choice, then I still have a choice.

It is predetermintion with his choice in mind.

I´m a bit lost here.
Preknowledge is whose predetermination with whose choice in whose mind?

If it is my choice then it is God's preknowledge of what I am going to chose, so it is my choice that was predetermined before I made the choice, not God's choice for me.

Preknowledge isn´t predetermination at all. It merely indicates the preknown action to be predetermined.

I think you are correct. Does that make you nervous? So when we are talking about the foreknowledge of God we should not be referring to it as predetermined, but simply as foreknown.

 

[quatona]

The whole point is that preknowlegde of what someone is going to chose is not predetermination other than himself.

You have used this wording before, and I simply don´t understand the structure and meaning of it. Whom does the "himself refer to".
And again and again: Preknowledge isn´t predetermination. I have agreed with that several times now. It merely indicates predetermination.

I will try again. If the predetermination is of me making a choice, then I still have a choice.

Sorry, but things cannot be determined twice. Since the meaning of "choice" is a determining act, this is nonsense.

It is predetermintion with his choice in mind.

Could it be, that we have left the realm of logic?

If it is my choice then it is God's preknowledge of what I am going to chose, so it is my choice that was predetermined before I made the choice, not God's choice for me.

And once again: The last has never been my claim.
However, there cannot be such a thing as a "predetermined choice". It´s an oxymoron.

I think you are correct. Does that make you nervous?

Yes, quite a bit.

So when we are talking about the foreknowledge of God we should not be referring to it as predetermined, but simply as foreknown.

elman, sometimes I have problems sorting your sentences. Blame it on the fact that I am not a native speaker. The only thing the "it" in this sentence can possibly refer to seems to be "preknowledge".
Who the heck has claimed that God´s foreknowledge is predetermined?
Or what is it you meant to communicate here?

 

[elman]

Sorry, but things cannot be determined twice. Since the meaning of "choice" is a determining act, this is nonsense.

What if I decide now what I am going to do tomorrow? Have I predetermined what I am going to do?

However, there cannot be such a thing as a "predetermined choice". It´s an oxymoron.

Perhaps not see above.

elman, sometimes I have problems sorting your sentences. Blame it on the fact that I am not a native speaker. The only thing the "it" in this sentence can possibly refer to seems to be "preknowledge".
Who the heck has claimed that God´s foreknowledge is predetermined?

Nobody. Certainly not me.

 

[quatona]

What if I decide now what I am going to do tomorrow? Have I predetermined what I am going to do?

This is impossible. Either you choose it today, then there is no choice tomorrow, but only a necessary consequence of your choice today.
Or you choose it tomorrow, then today has not been a decision, but a plan.

Nobody. Certainly not me.

Why, then, do you argumentate against claimes nobody makes instead of adressing those that are made?

 

[JustJack!]

When we say your choices are pre known, we are not saying they are predetermined by God.

The simple 'fact' that He knows them does predetermine them, simply because I can not choose contrary to what He "knows" I'm going to choose.

 

[icbeckyc]

Ok, I have been thinking about this today. And after reading what JustJack! said I this is the point I have reached. So tell me what you think....

"The simple 'fact' that He knows them does predetermine them, simply because I can not choose contrary to what He "knows" I'm going to choose."

Yes the choices I make are predetermined in the sense that God knows what I am going to do long before I was born. But he did not make the choice, he just knows yep, that goofy woman is going to spend way to much time on that CF forum. I am the one that chooses to spend to much time here. He even knows when I am going to find a different site to spend time on but I don't even know another one is out there yet.

 

[Telephone]

Yes the choices I make are predetermined in the sense that God knows what I am going to do long before I was born. But he did not make the choice, he just knows yep, that goofy woman is going to spend way to much time on that CF forum.

We must not confuse the question.

You are right, god does not make your choices, I do not think anyone has claimed such.