Accountability in the Church

[Veni]

Remember Our Lord came as a Man.

Only a man can judge a man.

It will be unjust for a man to judge a woman.

Only a man should be a pastor, for only a man can enter judgment.

 

[Carl Emerson]

We can't go wrong there. I witnessed Murray Robertson preaching at Spreydon Baptist in 1986 where the Lord spoke to me so clearly during his message that I felt that he was preaching just to me. It was one of the very few times when someone's message was so powerfully prophetic and it changed my attitude to the particular issue that I have having with my previous Palmerston North church.

I was under his teaching for 7 years.

 

[Creator123]

How can accountability in the church be encouraged to help keep both the shepherds and the sheep on the straight and narrow path of salvation? How did the modern day church even evolve to the point where Pastors are seen as untouchable authoritarian figures who are allowed to do whatever they want to the sheep? The bible says that if a man cannot manage his own household then he should not lead the household of God. The bible also details that the man leading the church should also have a good, self-controlled character that is not violent, lacks love of money, etc.

1 Timothy 3
1This is a trustworthy saying: “If someone aspires to be a church leader,a he desires an honorable position.” 2So a church leader must be a man whose life is above reproach. He must be faithful to his wife.b He must exercise self-control, live wisely, and have a good reputation. He must enjoy having guests in his home, and he must be able to teach. 3He must not be a heavy drinkerc or be violent. He must be gentle, not quarrelsome, and not love money. 4He must manage his own family well, having children who respect and obey him. 5For if a man cannot manage his own household, how can he take care of God’s church?

There are many examples where the households of Pastors are in shambles, and it eventually brings down the whole ministry of the Pastor. Scandals such as violent tempers, sexual immorality among the members of the household, incredible greed, disrespectful, wayward, lost, at times addicted, and even suicidal children bent on self destruction who are casualties of their parents ministry, etc. How can these things be addressed? What is the best way to keep the shepherds accountable to the sheep and vice versa so that all can continue to exhort each other to Godliness and holiness according to Hebrews 10:25 (25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.)? Many discouraging things are happening in churches to the point where some people are being completely turned off to church forever and do not want to have fellowship in church anymore due to the levels of scandals taking place.

Without accountability in the church we are just like the rest of the world

 

[timothyu]

Without accountability in the church we are just like the rest of the world

The church is just as likely to have those not of the Kingdom as the rest of the world. The Adversarial spirit is everywhere. The only thing is that the church has a better chance of having these rebels come back into the fold

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The church is just as likely to have those not of the Kingdom as the rest of the world. The Adversarial spirit is everywhere. The only thing is that the church has a better chance of having these rebels come back into the fold

What is needed is for the church to get back to the word of God and not continue with the word of man. The word of man involves saying that the Bible is not the inerrant Word of God, that the world was created through Theistic Evolution, the gifts of the Spirit ceased at the end of the Apostolic Age, that there needs to be a mixture of faith and works in order to maintain salvation, that poverty is a sin and prosperity and guaranteed healing is the will of God for Christians, that God is just a concept and not a real Person, A Christ of faith instead of an historical Jesus, that gay marriage is acceptable, and gays can be accepted as full members of the church, that abortion is acceptable.

The Scripture says that before the end comes, there will be a general falling away from the faith, and false prophets and teachers will greatly increase and their false signs and wonders will be such as deceiving even the elect if that is possible. So, even if we see a need for accountability in the Church, things will get a lot worse before they get better, and things will be so bad that it will take the second coming of Christ to sort it all out.

So, what is needed is for you and me to examine ourselves to really make sure that we are in the faith, and that we are depending on the sound doctrine of the Gospel of Christ and not going after fables.

 

[timothyu]

So, what is needed is for you and me to examine ourselves to really make sure that we are in the faith, and that we are depending on the sound doctrine of the Gospel of Christ and not going after fables.

This is why I perpetually persist in forwarding the Gospel of the Kingdom, the only Gospel Jesus ever spoke of. Everything revolves around putting God's will first over ours and His will is we love all as self. It's a backwards world we have made in our own self serving image and we must get ourselves right and reject it

 

[ARBITER01]

What is needed is for the church to get back to the word of God and not continue with the word of man.

I would say that people need to have a better prayer life alongside the word of GOD. We are involved in a relationship with GOD and we can't find that by just paying attention to the written word.

 

[AbbaLove]

I would say that people need to have a better prayer life alongside the word of GOD.

For Sure!

We are involved in a relationship with GOD and we can't find that by just paying attention to the written word.

He is the Living Word and as such we need to cherish His Word as an integral function of the triune Godhead (Colossians 2:9).

John 1:1-3,14-18 (NASB)​

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.​

​

14 And the Word became flesh, and [k]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [l]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me [m]has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness [n]we have all received, and [o]grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth [p]were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.​

A few years before Billy Graham's passing he was asked if there is anything that he regretted. He replied, that he wished he would have spent more time studying the Word.

Billy Graham's Regret - Griffin Paul Jackson

"One of my great regrets is that I have not studied enough. I wish I had studied more and preached less.... Donald Barnhouse said that if he knew the Lord was coming in three years he would spend two of them studying and one preaching. I'm trying to make it up."

griffinpauljackson.com

On the other hand ...
​

In Ecclesiastes 12:12 Solomon said, “My son, beware of anything beyond these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is wearisome to the flesh.” Solomon was making a point about the amount of information that was available, and how overwhelming – and [wearying] – it could be.

The Holy Bible (Word of God) for a commoner did not exist until 1560, with its many insightful footnotes.
​

 

[ARBITER01]

For Sure!

He is the Living Word and as such we need to cherish His Word as an integral function of the triune Godhead (Colossians 2:9).

​

We are to cherish Him, not His word. We are to believe in His word, not place it above the GODHEAD. Relationship comes first.

 

[Aussie Pete]

How can accountability in the church be encouraged to help keep both the shepherds and the sheep on the straight and narrow path of salvation? How did the modern day church even evolve to the point where Pastors are seen as untouchable authoritarian figures who are allowed to do whatever they want to the sheep? The bible says that if a man cannot manage his own household then he should not lead the household of God. The bible also details that the man leading the church should also have a good, self-controlled character that is not violent, lacks love of money, etc.

1 Timothy 3
1This is a trustworthy saying: “If someone aspires to be a church leader,a he desires an honorable position.” 2So a church leader must be a man whose life is above reproach. He must be faithful to his wife.b He must exercise self-control, live wisely, and have a good reputation. He must enjoy having guests in his home, and he must be able to teach. 3He must not be a heavy drinkerc or be violent. He must be gentle, not quarrelsome, and not love money. 4He must manage his own family well, having children who respect and obey him. 5For if a man cannot manage his own household, how can he take care of God’s church?

There are many examples where the households of Pastors are in shambles, and it eventually brings down the whole ministry of the Pastor. Scandals such as violent tempers, sexual immorality among the members of the household, incredible greed, disrespectful, wayward, lost, at times addicted, and even suicidal children bent on self destruction who are casualties of their parents ministry, etc. How can these things be addressed? What is the best way to keep the shepherds accountable to the sheep and vice versa so that all can continue to exhort each other to Godliness and holiness according to Hebrews 10:25 (25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.)? Many discouraging things are happening in churches to the point where some people are being completely turned off to church forever and do not want to have fellowship in church anymore due to the levels of scandals taking place.

This is a consequence of contracting out the life of the Christian to paid professionals. The church is a body, not a one man band. Jesus is the Head, not the pastor. While much of Catholicism has been rooted out of the protestant/evangelical movement, the pyramid leadership structure remains. The absurdity of this is obvious from God's word. The word "pastor" occurs only a couple of times in the NT.

These problems will not be resolved while pastors are selected from theology graduates who have no real life experience. And the attitude of many in the congregation is not helpful. Too many turn to the pastor instead of Jesus. This again is the Catholic spirit at work. We need the ministry gifts, but they are to enable us to grow in Christ to maturity where we can also minister to others.

 

[AbbaLove]

We are to cherish Him, not His word.

Christ Jesus is not only the Living Word, He and GOD are One from the beginning. So we should love and cherish the Word as we cherish GOD.

John 1:1, 14, (NKJV)​

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth..​

We are to believe in His word, not place it above the GODHEAD. Relationship comes first.

You still don't comprehend that thee Word(Christ) is the GODHEAD. That's why His Word is the Holy Bible (His Living WORD)

John 1:18 (NKJV)​

18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten [a]Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.​

1560 Geneva Bible - predecessor to King James Bible. The first English Bible ever to be translated from the original languages of Greek and Hebrew. The following footnotes to John 1:18 are from the 1599 Geneva Bible ...

1. John 1:18 That true knowledge of God proceedeth only from Jesus Christ.
2. John 1:18 Who is nearest to his Father, not only in respect of his love towards him, but by the bond of nature, and for that union or oneness that is between them, whereby the Father and the Son are one.
3. John 1:18 Revealed him, and showed him unto us, whereas before he was hid under the shadows of the Law, so that the quickness of the sight of our minds was not able to perceive him: for whosoever seeth him, seeth the Father also.

Some don't believe that Christ Jesus (thee Word) is the physical manifestation of God Incarnate (according John 1:1,14,18). If so then one's prayer life can be hindered without the indwelling born again presence of His Spirit to understand His Word.

Pray that God will open the eyes of your heart to cherish His Living Word.

 

[AbbaLove]

The word "pastor" occurs only a couple of times in the NT.

the Greek word for "pastor" is the same as the Greek word for "shepherd"

 

[ARBITER01]

You still don't comprehend that thee Word(Christ) is the GODHEAD. That's why His Word is the Holy Bible (His Living WORD)

I decided to change my original post.

There are differences in the Greek when we are talking about The Living Word (Jesus) and the written/spoken word (our bible). They are not the same, nor are we to consider them the same.

The written word is a product of The Holy Spirit through mankind.

If you are unable to receive this and want to argue with me, I'll just start ignoring you.

 

[Aussie Pete]

the Greek word for "pastor" is the same as the Greek word for "shepherd"

I know that. The modern emphasis on pastors is still far in excess of what the NT has to say about them.

 

[AbbaLove]

I decided to change my original post.

The written word is a product of The Holy Spirit through mankind.

It would indicate honor if you capitalized Word when referring to Christ Jesus as our Lord and Saviour (John 1:1) as is in these 63 Bible translations ... John 1:1 - Bible Gateway

If you are unable to receive this and want to argue with me, i won't start ignoring you. Instead i will pray that Christ Jesus (Word) will open the eyes of your heart for your spirit to receive.

May GOD Bless you with a heart that's open to discussion and fellowship instead of mistaking it for debate instead of loving correction.

 

[AbbaLove]

I know that. The modern emphasis on pastors is still far in excess of what the NT has to say about them.

With that in mind how would you distinquish a "modern Pastor" from a "Shepherd" besides having a nice salary and retirement pension. The first thought that comes to mind is that a good "Shepherd" puts the welfare of his flock above that of his own self-interests.

 

[ARBITER01]

It would indicate honor if you capitalized Word when referring to Christ Jesus as our Lord and Saviour (John 1:1)

The written word (scripture) is not Jesus. I'm not sure why you keep making this mistake.

 

[Gentle Lamb]

I know that. The modern emphasis on pastors is still far in excess of what the NT has to say about them.

This is true.

I've been thinking recently about the structure of modern day churches and how each church congregation emphasizes the pastor or him and his wife, or him, his wife, and his family. Many churches are very much structured around them and it creates quite a few pastors. A model that follows the new testament with groups of elders would probably create far less drama and afford more opportunities for the congregation to be well shepherded. Actually I am also thinking of how Moses had many judges raised up to help him due to following his father in law's advice. Those judges were divided among the congregation and it eased the extreme burden on Moses. There are extreme burdens placed on pastor's and their families due to the modern day church structure and it hurts the pastors, their families, and the church.

 

[AbbaLove]

The written word (scripture) is not Jesus. I'm not sure why you keep making this mistake.

Doing so is because the eyes of your heart need a refreshing of your spiritual sight.

That's like saying the written word (scripture) is not of God or not of Christ or not of the Holy Spirit. Like saying that even the red letter edition is not Jesus.

The "Word" is Christ and Christ is God. I'm not sure why you so easily dismiss the fact that the Living Word (Holy Bible) is not attributed to Jesus (John 1:1-18).

DO YOU NOT REALIZE that without Christ Jesus there would be no Holy BIble?

John 1:14 ... John 1:14 - Bible Gateway​

​

It would do all of us to mediate on His Word ... Bible Gateway passage: John 1:1-18 - New King James Version ... including modern Pastors​

 

[ARBITER01]

Doing so is because the eyes of your heart need a refreshing of your spiritual sight.

That's like saying the written word (scripture) is not of God or not of Christ or not of the Holy Spirit. Like saying that even the red letter edition is not Jesus.

The "Word" is Christ and Christ is God. I'm not sure why you so easily dismiss the fact that the Living Word (Holy Bible) is not attributed to Jesus (John 1:1-18).

DO YOU NOT REALIZE that without Christ Jesus there would be no Holy BIble?

John 1:14 ... John 1:14 - Bible Gateway​

​

It would do all of us to mediate on His Word ... Bible Gateway passage: John 1:1-18 - New King James Version ... including modern Pastors​

Well it's easy to see you've picked up some oddball teachings from someone, and I'm not interested in trying to pick them apart.

Our discussion has now ended.