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Accept Jesus As Savior

SavedByGrace3

Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)
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I have thought for some time that we make this way too complicated. One needs to be a theologian or a Bible scholar to get saved. There are so many steps, rules, and stipulations. I do not see that in the Book of Acts or the epistles. It is very simple. You grab on an element of the word... or rather, it grabs ahold of you. Paul said it was simple. Seriously. If your testimony/witness is a 49-page book... it is too long. I am not criticizing... please believe that. I just like to keep it as simple as the Scripture presents it.
 
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d taylor

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You lost me with this one. I am not sure I see how this relates to what I said.
-
It is a simple position i have. Belief in Jesus is how a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life and becomes a permanent born again child of God.

Since you do not agree, you post other verses trying to build your case (belief) that it takes more than belief in Jesus. You use James 2 as your proof and other verses. Plus, you state a person has to actually understand this in the original language. etc... all orchestrated to discredit belief in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

So there you have it and i have discussed this enough, so this is my last post.
 
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bling

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I have thought for some time that we make this way too complicated. One needs to be a theologian or a Bible scholar to get saved. There are so many steps, rules, and stipulations. I do not see that in the Book of Acts or the epistles. It is very simple. You grab on an element of the word... or rather, it grabs ahold of you. Paul said it was simple. Seriously. If your testimony/witness is a 49-page book... it is too long. I am not criticizing... please believe that. I just like to keep it as simple as the Scripture presents it.
Please read my post 31.
 
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bling

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Love your methods.
We should talk sometime.
I would not mind following the steps you use in study.
My "method" I hope and pray is the method Christ established while here on earth.
1. You find nonbelievers willing to study the Bible with you (one hour per week is fine but it could be more often.
2. If they have a particular issue you need to address that first, but again start with where you agree.
3. With no real issue (at least no issue they want to talk about) and little knowledge of scripture you start with one of the Gospels.
4. This is important, you find someone in the congregation willing to go with you to study with you and the nonbeliever. They need to commit to seven hours per lesson (pray, fasting a day, study, meditation and the hour of study). You will be providing them with questions the student might ask, and you want them to not give an answer, but have a follow up question, story and/or scripture.
5. You really are trying to mentor both the nonbeliever and the member you brought along.
6. This can take time so you might have several lessons going at the same time.
7. Some should eventually be converted, to being a disciple maker themselves and have friends and family to study with. You can't do them all, but hopefully one of the members can go with the new convert.
 
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ViaCrucis

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:confounded: Define what the question means?

The term you used is one which I am familiar with as I grew up in a religious environment which used such language to refer to how a person "gets saved", based on the popular American Evangelical doctrine of Decisionism.

I asked for a definition because I want to make sure that is what you are referring to. Because I think it is, at least hypothetically, possible to use the same terminology other ways. That's why I asked, because I want a clear understanding of what is being asked so that I can give a likewise clear answer.

To provide a conditional answer (conditional on the assumption that "accept Jesus as personal Savior" is in reference to the Decisionist doctrine) here is what I would say: We don't. More specifically, we do not make Jesus our personal Lord and Savior as a decision of our will which results in our being saved. That is an unbiblical view of salvation, and a doctrinal stance that did not exist until very recently in history, with its roots in several theological traditions which emerged in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

As a member of one of the churches of the Reformation, I hold firm and fast to what is put forward in the confessions of the Evangelical (i.e. Lutheran) Christian faith; that we are justified by grace alone through faith alone. Our regeneration, therefore, is entirely the work, power, and gift of God. The human will has no active role in our justification, because the human will is fallen and in bondage to sin because of the original sin of our first parents, Adam and Eve. All human beings receive and inherit the fallen, sinful, broken nature of Adam; being wholly sinful and unable to, in any way, attain any righteousness before God. As St. Paul says, the unregenerate man is dead in his trespasses and held in bondage to the lusts of the flesh and the devil (Ephesians 2:1-3). For this reason the Apostle also quotes the Psalmist, writing, "There is no one righteous, not even one, there is no one who understands, there is none who seeks God" (Romans 3:10-11).

Therefore to expect the unregenerate sinner to act with his unregenerate, sinful, and bondaged will to come to God is like thinking that a rock can will itself to roll up a hill; or that a corpse by its own power can get out of its sarcophagus and walk. As the Lord Himself says, "With man this is impossible" (Matthew 19:26).

It is only by the grace of God who coming down to meet sinners can change the heart of stone into a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 26:36) by giving to us what we do not have, namely faith; that through faith we should receive and trust in Christ. This God does freely through the means He has given, provided, and so works, His precious word. As the Apostle says, "How can they believe on Him whom they have not heard? How can they hear unless one is sent to preach? ... So that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" (Romans 10:14-17). So that whenever and wherever the word of God is--that is to say, the promises of God, His Gospel--there God works to give, create, and strengthen faith.

So as Paul gives us the example of our father Abraham who "had faith and it was reckoned to him as righteousness" (Romans 4:3), for it is God "who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist" (Romans 4:17). For God making His promise to Abraham gives Abraham faith, and Abraham believes and this, before God, is counted as righteousness. It is not that Abraham was righteous and so believed; Abraham believed and was so declared righteous.

All, therefore, whom God gives faith are freely justified by His grace, as the same Apostle Paul says, "we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through Him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand" (Romans 5:1-2)

This righteousness that is by faith is not our own righteousness, it cannot be; for as we can see clearly from the Scriptures we have no righteousness by which to boast of before God. This righteousness is a gift, it is indeed the righteousness of God's own Son, "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one righteous act leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one Man's obedience the many will be made righteous." (Romans 5:18-19) We have, therefore, the righteousness of Christ, imputed to us as a free gift of God.

And here is where we can, biblically, talk about accepting Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior, not as it pertains to our justification, but rather our sanctification. For Christ has commanded, "if anyone would come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever would keep his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it." ( Matthew 16:24-25).

Therefore, having now been regenerated by the grace of God, freely giving us faith, on account of the perfect work of Christ who lived, suffered, died, and rose again--now ascended and seated at the right hand of the Father from whence He will come again--we must reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God (Romans 6:11) taking up the cross of discipleship and follow the Lord, knowing that where He is we shall be also (John 14:3). Having been set free from sin and the devil ("Whomever the Son sets free is free indeed" John 8:36, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom" 2 Corinthians 3:17, etc) we are therefore now free to follow Christ and live according to His way and commandment. Telling us and commanding us, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength; and love your neighbor as yourself." (Mark 12:30-31), to "love one another even as I have loved you" (John 13:34) and indeed to live in this new obedience as a new creation made in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17), and in this we "work out [our] salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12), putting to death the works of the flesh (Romans 8:13, Colossians 3:5), in this way knowing what St. James says is true, "faith without works is dead" (James 2:17) for one is not justified by having the right beliefs, but by faith in the promises of God (this is why the devils, though believing and even knowing God is real, remain under the condemnation of God, James 2:19); for we work not that we should be justified before God; but that our "light shine before others, that they might see your good works and glorify your Father that is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Therefore, to accept Lord as our personal Lord is to die daily in repentance and live toward good works "which were prepared beforehand by God that you might walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10) and in this way mortify the flesh, walking in the Spirit, and live holy lives as disciples of Jesus Christ.

It isn't how we are made right with God, but how God's rightness might shine forth through us before the world, "and everyone might know you are My disciples" (John 13:34).

Therefore put to death the old Adam by a life of penitential fear, having faith in the merciful and loving God who has saved us in Christ, having made us both kings and priests and accomplished all good for us. And having accomplished such good, is now working still in us, to complete that good work which He began (Philippians 1:6). Therefore every day accept Him, take up your cross and follow. Die. Die in repentance, die in your good works, mortify the flesh, trust the Lord and resist the devil. Boldly confess your sins and come before the throne of grace, fight the good fight, run the race, set your gaze upon Christ who alone is our Finish Line; for He is the Author and Finisher of our faith. And in Him alone we live, by Him alone we have been made righteous, and in Him alone shall we pass through judgment to life everlasting, the resurrection of the dead, and the eternal good which God has purposed from the beginning.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Clare73

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It looks more like grapes and carrots.
We are not talking about the same thing.
While I am talking about accepting Jesus, you want to talk about the effectiveness of one's salvation.
To "accept" Jesus is a common misnomer for salvation by faith alone (Eph 2:8).

My statement assumes that to "accept" Jesus means salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9).

There is no "acceptance" of Jesus (salvation from God's wrath by faith alone) that does not result in obedience to him.

Any other "acceptance" of Jesus is spiritually profitless.
 
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Clare73

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I have thought for some time that we make this way too complicated. One needs to be a theologian or a Bible scholar to get saved. There are so many steps, rules, and stipulations. I do not see that in the Book of Acts or the epistles. It is very simple. You grab on an element of the word... or rather, it grabs ahold of you. Paul said it was simple. Seriously. If your testimony/witness is a 49-page book... it is too long. I am not criticizing... please believe that. I just like to keep it as simple as the Scripture presents it.
It might take a 49-page book to describe one's transition from abject anti-theism to salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.
 
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CoreyD

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It is a simple position i have. Belief in Jesus is how a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life and becomes a permanent born again child of God.
Since you do not agree, you post other verses trying to build your case (belief) that it takes more than belief in Jesus. You use James 2 as your proof and other verses. Plus, you state a person has to actually understand this in the original language. etc... all orchestrated to discredit belief in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life.
You did not understand what I said.

So there you have it and i have discussed this enough,
so this is my last post.
Again. As usual.
See you.
 
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CoreyD

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My "method" I hope and pray is the method Christ established while here on earth.
1. You find nonbelievers willing to study the Bible with you (one hour per week is fine but it could be more often.
2. If they have a particular issue you need to address that first, but again start with where you agree.
3. With no real issue (at least no issue they want to talk about) and little knowledge of scripture you start with one of the Gospels.
4. This is important, you find someone in the congregation willing to go with you to study with you and the nonbeliever. They need to commit to seven hours per lesson (pray, fasting a day, study, meditation and the hour of study). You will be providing them with questions the student might ask, and you want them to not give an answer, but have a follow up question, story and/or scripture.
5. You really are trying to mentor both the nonbeliever and the member you brought along.
6. This can take time so you might have several lessons going at the same time.
7. Some should eventually be converted, to being a disciple maker themselves and have friends and family to study with. You can't do them all, but hopefully one of the members can go with the new convert.
Is there a primary message you usually have in focus?
 
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CoreyD

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The term you used is one which I am familiar with as I grew up in a religious environment which used such language to refer to how a person "gets saved", based on the popular American Evangelical doctrine of Decisionism.

I asked for a definition because I want to make sure that is what you are referring to. Because I think it is, at least hypothetically, possible to use the same terminology other ways. That's why I asked, because I want a clear understanding of what is being asked so that I can give a likewise clear answer.

To provide a conditional answer (conditional on the assumption that "accept Jesus as personal Savior" is in reference to the Decisionist doctrine) here is what I would say: We don't. More specifically, we do not make Jesus our personal Lord and Savior as a decision of our will which results in our being saved. That is an unbiblical view of salvation, and a doctrinal stance that did not exist until very recently in history, with its roots in several theological traditions which emerged in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

As a member of one of the churches of the Reformation, I hold firm and fast to what is put forward in the confessions of the Evangelical (i.e. Lutheran) Christian faith; that we are justified by grace alone through faith alone. Our regeneration, therefore, is entirely the work, power, and gift of God. The human will has no active role in our justification, because the human will is fallen and in bondage to sin because of the original sin of our first parents, Adam and Eve. All human beings receive and inherit the fallen, sinful, broken nature of Adam; being wholly sinful and unable to, in any way, attain any righteousness before God. As St. Paul says, the unregenerate man is dead in his trespasses and held in bondage to the lusts of the flesh and the devil (Ephesians 2:1-3). For this reason the Apostle also quotes the Psalmist, writing, "There is no one righteous, not even one, there is no one who understands, there is none who seeks God" (Romans 3:10-11).

Therefore to expect the unregenerate sinner to act with his unregenerate, sinful, and bondaged will to come to God is like thinking that a rock can will itself to roll up a hill; or that a corpse by its own power can get out of its sarcophagus and walk. As the Lord Himself says, "With man this is impossible" (Matthew 19:26).

It is only by the grace of God who coming down to meet sinners can change the heart of stone into a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 26:36) by giving to us what we do not have, namely faith; that through faith we should receive and trust in Christ. This God does freely through the means He has given, provided, and so works, His precious word. As the Apostle says, "How can they believe on Him whom they have not heard? How can they hear unless one is sent to preach? ... So that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" (Romans 10:14-17). So that whenever and wherever the word of God is--that is to say, the promises of God, His Gospel--there God works to give, create, and strengthen faith.

So as Paul gives us the example of our father Abraham who "had faith and it was reckoned to him as righteousness" (Romans 4:3), for it is God "who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist" (Romans 4:17). For God making His promise to Abraham gives Abraham faith, and Abraham believes and this, before God, is counted as righteousness. It is not that Abraham was righteous and so believed; Abraham believed and was so declared righteous.

All, therefore, whom God gives faith are freely justified by His grace, as the same Apostle Paul says, "we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through Him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand" (Romans 5:1-2)

This righteousness that is by faith is not our own righteousness, it cannot be; for as we can see clearly from the Scriptures we have no righteousness by which to boast of before God. This righteousness is a gift, it is indeed the righteousness of God's own Son, "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one righteous act leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one Man's obedience the many will be made righteous." (Romans 5:18-19) We have, therefore, the righteousness of Christ, imputed to us as a free gift of God.

And here is where we can, biblically, talk about accepting Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior, not as it pertains to our justification, but rather our sanctification. For Christ has commanded, "if anyone would come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever would keep his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it." ( Matthew 16:24-25).

Therefore, having now been regenerated by the grace of God, freely giving us faith, on account of the perfect work of Christ who lived, suffered, died, and rose again--now ascended and seated at the right hand of the Father from whence He will come again--we must reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God (Romans 6:11) taking up the cross of discipleship and follow the Lord, knowing that where He is we shall be also (John 14:3). Having been set free from sin and the devil ("Whomever the Son sets free is free indeed" John 8:36, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom" 2 Corinthians 3:17, etc) we are therefore now free to follow Christ and live according to His way and commandment. Telling us and commanding us, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength; and love your neighbor as yourself." (Mark 12:30-31), to "love one another even as I have loved you" (John 13:34) and indeed to live in this new obedience as a new creation made in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17), and in this we "work out [our] salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12), putting to death the works of the flesh (Romans 8:13, Colossians 3:5), in this way knowing what St. James says is true, "faith without works is dead" (James 2:17) for one is not justified by having the right beliefs, but by faith in the promises of God (this is why the devils, though believing and even knowing God is real, remain under the condemnation of God, James 2:19); for we work not that we should be justified before God; but that our "light shine before others, that they might see your good works and glorify your Father that is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Therefore, to accept Lord as our personal Lord is to die daily in repentance and live toward good works "which were prepared beforehand by God that you might walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10) and in this way mortify the flesh, walking in the Spirit, and live holy lives as disciples of Jesus Christ.

It isn't how we are made right with God, but how God's rightness might shine forth through us before the world, "and everyone might know you are My disciples" (John 13:34).

Therefore put to death the old Adam by a life of penitential fear, having faith in the merciful and loving God who has saved us in Christ, having made us both kings and priests and accomplished all good for us. And having accomplished such good, is now working still in us, to complete that good work which He began (Philippians 1:6). Therefore every day accept Him, take up your cross and follow. Die. Die in repentance, die in your good works, mortify the flesh, trust the Lord and resist the devil. Boldly confess your sins and come before the throne of grace, fight the good fight, run the race, set your gaze upon Christ who alone is our Finish Line; for He is the Author and Finisher of our faith. And in Him alone we live, by Him alone we have been made righteous, and in Him alone shall we pass through judgment to life everlasting, the resurrection of the dead, and the eternal good which God has purposed from the beginning.

-CryptoLutheran
Thanks for your answer.
A few points confused me a bit. Perhaps you can clarify.
Did Abraham believed, or put faith? Do you see a difference?
Abraham's faith involved action - an act of faith. Do you recall what that act of faith was, and does this show that works give evidence of faith?
You seem to agree that works are a walk of faith. Am I understanding you correctly?
 
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CoreyD

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Unselfish Love needs to come across.
Yes, we want to have love, and let people see that, but if you "hope and pray your method is the method Christ established while here on earth", would you not want your message to be the message Jesus focused on while here on earth, and also commissioned his disciples to carry, since this is God's message he commanded Jesus to preach?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Thanks for your answer.
A few points confused me a bit. Perhaps you can clarify.
Did Abraham believed, or put faith? Do you see a difference?

I don't know about Hebrew, but in Greek "belief" "faith" and "trust" are all the same word. In the story of Abraham it is that Abraham trusted what God said, and that was accounted to him as righteousness. That's what faith means when Paul talks about justification--trust.

Abraham's faith involved action - an act of faith. Do you recall what that act of faith was, and does this show that works give evidence of faith?
You seem to agree that works are a walk of faith. Am I understanding you correctly?

Action follows faith; but it isn't what Abraham did that made him righteous before God. God declared Abraham just because of faith in God's promise.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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bling

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Yes, we want to have love, and let people see that, but if you "hope and pray your method is the method Christ established while here on earth", would you not want your message to be the message Jesus focused on while here on earth, and also commissioned his disciples to carry, since this is God's message he commanded Jesus to preach?
We are not trying to "sell", persuade, people into accepting some doctrine, church, book, or philosophy, but we are trying to get them to humbly accept the person, Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Accepting Jesus' Love (most likely in the form of forgiveness) and wanting to Love like He Loves is the acceptance I am looking for.
It is easy and somewhat automatic Luke 7, he that is forgiven much, Loves much, yet people have a real hard time humbling themselves to the point of accepting pure undeserved charity as charity.
 
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CoreyD

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We are not trying to "sell", persuade, people into accepting some doctrine, church, book, or philosophy, but we are trying to get them to humbly accept the person, Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Accepting Jesus' Love (most likely in the form of forgiveness) and wanting to Love like He Loves is the acceptance I am looking for.
Isn't that a church doctrine bling?

It is easy and somewhat automatic Luke 7, he that is forgiven much, Loves much, yet people have a real hard time humbling themselves to the point of accepting pure undeserved charity as charity.
Jesus said that people will refuse to do God's will, and try to fill that in with other things. Matthew 7:21-23
I certainly do not want to do that.
 
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bling

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Isn't that a church doctrine bling?
When I said, "Church", I was referring to "a" church a denomination or a particular church and not the universal church.
Jesus said that people will refuse to do God's will, and try to fill that in with other things. Matthew 7:21-23
I certainly do not want to do that.
They have to "Love" to obey and without Love what they do is worthless 1 Cor. 13:1-3.
Love will compel them to do good stuff.
I study with people until they are making disciples themselves and do not have time for me.
 
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CoreyD

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When I said, "Church", I was referring to "a" church a denomination or a particular church and not the universal church.
II understand that, and I have no problem with that.
I am saying that what you said here, is church doctrine.
bling said:
We are not trying to "sell", persuade, people into accepting some doctrine, church, book, or philosophy, but we are trying to get them to humbly accept the person, Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Accepting Jesus' Love (most likely in the form of forgiveness) and wanting to Love like He Loves is the acceptance I am looking for.

When we decide what message we want to give, rather than use the message Jesus himself was commissioned to teach, and commissioned his followers to preach, it is church doctrine.
Would you not agree with that?

They have to "Love" to obey and without Love what they do is worthless 1 Cor. 13:1-3.
Love will compel them to do good stuff.
I study with people until they are making disciples themselves and do not have time for me.
Don't you think they have to know what God's will is 1 Timothy 2:3, 4, and the truth about God and Christ John 17:3, to love?

How can Matthew 22:37-39 be applied if one does not know the truth about God?
Romans 10:13-15
13 “For everyone who will call the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH shall be saved.”​
14 Therefore, how would they call to This One unless they believed in him, or how would they believe him unless they heard him, or how would they hear without a preacher?​
15 Or how will they preach, unless they will be sent, as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of The Messengers of peace and of The Messengers of good things!”​

The messengers carry a message that is one of peace, and good things.
This was the message Jesus was commissioned by God to carry Luke 4:43, and it is the same message he commissioned his followers to bear witness. Matthew 24:14

Am I saying something that is not scripture?
 
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bling

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II understand that, and I have no problem with that.
I am saying that what you said here, is church doctrine.
bling said:
We are not trying to "sell", persuade, people into accepting some doctrine, church, book, or philosophy, but we are trying to get them to humbly accept the person, Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Accepting Jesus' Love (most likely in the form of forgiveness) and wanting to Love like He Loves is the acceptance I am looking for.

When we decide what message we want to give, rather than use the message Jesus himself taught, and commissioned his followers to preach, it is church doctrine.
Would you not agree with that?
"Churches" can have non-biblical messages which is theirs's and not God's.
Don't you think they have to know what God's will is 1 Timothy 2:3, 4, and the truth about God and Christ John 17:3, to love?

How can Matthew 22:37-39 be applied if one does not know the truth about God?
Romans 10:13-15
13 “For everyone who will call the name of THE LORD JEHOVAH shall be saved.”​
14 Therefore, how would they call to This One unless they believed in him, or how would they believe him unless they heard him, or how would they hear without a preacher?​
15 Or how will they preach, unless they will be sent, as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of The Messengers of peace and of The Messengers of good things!”​

The messengers carry a message that is one of peace, and good things.
This was the message Jesus was commissioned by God to carry Luke 4:43, and it is the same message he commissioned his followers to bear witness. Matthew 24:14

Am I saying something that is not scripture?
It still goes back to treating everyone individually and starting where you agree. Lots of the time it is not what you say but how you say it.
I taught Bible once a week in a prison where three years earlier there was one Christian and now there were 40, but at great cost. The day these guys were baptized was also the day they would stand before their gang, hand over all their possessions (including their weapons) and tell the gang they were no longer a member, which resulted in the gang beating them or other gangs beating them for payback. Other Christians would jump in between them and take the blows if they could.
Think about your Sunday School "message" to these prisoners and your local church Sunday school class. One of the Christian prisoners told me, he started out laughing at a new Christian being beaten by a gang, but stood in unbelieve as that new Christian kept getting back up forgiving them, saying stuff and not fighting back. He said there was nothing he believed that would cause him to do that. He said, "I just wanted, what he had".
 
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CoreyD

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"Churches" can have non-biblical messages which is theirs's and not God's.

It still goes back to treating everyone individually and starting where you agree. Lots of the time it is not what you say but how you say it.
My experience... This is a good approach. However, the results differ greatly based on the audience.
If the audience is staunch religious, you would have to start where they agree, remain only on what they agree, and end only on what they agree... but say nothing that they do not agree with.
Which is neither practical nor realistic.

This is Jesus' experience as well.
Jesus was the greatest teacher, to have ever lived on earth. No one could teach better.

When jesus taught the crowds, on one occasion, this was the effect.
All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. Luke 4:22
...but then, this happened, in like less than a minute.
All the people in the synagogue were furious / filled with wrath / enraged... Luke 4:28
Why this sudden change?

It was because Jesus told them a truth that they did not want to hear, and were not humble enough to accept.
Jesus treated everyone individually and starting where they agreed. (You remember Stephen did that as well. He was stoned to death... despite treating people like his own brother. Acts 6:15-7:60)
It was what Jesus said that infuriated the crowd. It did not matter how he treated them.

The majority of times, when speaking to religious people, you can treat them like royalty, they will get angry with you... hate you... stop listening and talking to you... Why? Most religious people are proud. and because they think they know, they don't want to hear anything else.
They will listen to you with pleasure if you agree with them every step of the way, and only say things they like to hear. Don' show them any scriptures that disagree with their position, and you will be a person who shows all the "love" in the world.

Talking to people who are not staunchly religious, tends to have different results.
These people are more opened to seeing what the Bible actually says, and are more willing to listen, and learn.
That's my experience.

I taught Bible once a week in a prison where three years earlier there was one Christian and now there were 40, but at great cost. The day these guys were baptized was also the day they would stand before their gang, hand over all their possessions (including their weapons) and tell the gang they were no longer a member, which resulted in the gang beating them or other gangs beating them for payback. Other Christians would jump in between them and take the blows if they could.
Yes. This is what I experience, as well.
People who want their life to change, are looking for spiritual help, and are opened to learning what the Bible says.

These guys were holding on to weapons till the day of their baptism? That is interesting.
My experience is that genuine repentance involves giving up what you know is wrong, way before baptism, since one needs to make a commitment to God, before water baptism.

I don't like the methods of the church to mass baptize people, whom it does not seem obvious that these have really committed to God, but that is not surprising.

Think about your Sunday School "message" to these prisoners and your local church Sunday school class. One of the Christian prisoners told me, he started out laughing at a new Christian being beaten by a gang, but stood in unbelieve as that new Christian kept getting back up forgiving them, saying stuff and not fighting back. He said there was nothing he believed that would cause him to do that. He said, "I just wanted, what he had".
The apostles got beaten for sharing the gospel.
 
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bling

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My experience... This is a good approach. However, the results differ greatly based on the audience.
If the audience is staunch religious, you would have to start where they agree, remain only on what they agree, and end only on what they agree... but say nothing that they do not agree with.
Which is neither practical nor realistic.

This is Jesus' experience as well.
Jesus was the greatest teacher, to have ever lived on earth. No one could teach better.

When jesus taught the crowds, on one occasion, this was the effect.
All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. Luke 4:22
...but then, this happened, in like less than a minute.
All the people in the synagogue were furious / filled with wrath / enraged... Luke 4:28
Why this sudden change?

It was because Jesus told them a truth that they did not want to hear, and were not humble enough to accept.
Jesus treated everyone individually and starting where they agreed. (You remember Stephen did that as well. He was stoned to death... despite treating people like his own brother. Acts 6:15-7:60)
It was what Jesus said that infuriated the crowd. It did not matter how he treated them.

The majority of times, when speaking to religious people, you can treat them like royalty, they will get angry with you... hate you... stop listening and talking to you... Why? Most religious people are proud. and because they think they know, they don't want to hear anything else.
They will listen to you with pleasure if you agree with them every step of the way, and only say things they like to hear. Don' show them any scriptures that disagree with their position, and you will be a person who shows all the "love" in the world.

Talking to people who are not staunchly religious, tends to have different results.
These people are more opened to seeing what the Bible actually says, and are more willing to listen, and learn.
That's my experience.
I agree you start with where you agree, but will move on to where you disagree. I can agree with a lot of what Muslims say and teach and they can agree with me, since we use a lot of the same words, but with different meanings. I go back to the assumes and the assumed meanings they have. They are not going to be picking up stones, but often feel very uncomfortable.
Sometimes you can only set a seed of contingent, that hopefully at some later date will under some stress cause them to come back to you. This has happened with my experiences.
Do you listen to them the way you want them to listen to you?

Yes. This is what I experience, as well.
People who want their life to change, are looking for spiritual help, and are opened to learning what the Bible says.

These guys were holding on to weapons till the day of their baptism? That is interesting.
My experience is that genuine repentance involves giving up what you know is wrong, way before baptism, since one needs to make a commitment to God, before water baptism.

I don't like the methods of the church to mass baptize people, whom it does not seem obvious that these have really committed to God, but that is not surprising.


The apostles got beaten for sharing the gospel.
At the prison I taught in and also with my friends in communist China at unregistered churches there is this "in or out"/committed or not committed. The raids by the communist will result in taking only baptized believers, so if you are there and not baptized they might take your name and just let you go.
In prison we had four groups of 14 or so prisoners (some committed Christians and some prisoners just there listening [it could be for just something to do]). There was no week, partial, or nominal "Christians" in prison (you were in or out/ committed or not committed/baptized or not baptized).
Being baptized was a sign to the world of being committed in those locations.
 
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