Abused texts of Scripture: What is your example?

[tall73]

Where? @SabbathBlessings , do you believe the Protestant churches to be the daughters of a “Harlot”?

Rev 17 talks about the mother of harlots which means she has daughters which are the false churches. God gives everyone the opportunity to hear His voice and follow Him, speaking to us through His Word Psa 119:105 and never going away from it. Isa 8:20

 

[The Liturgist]

You mean what Jesus taught that is clear as day. This is where we differ and will probably never come to terms with. I believe what the bible teaches, especially with a thus saith the Lord, you follow church fathers on what was written outside of scripture.

We will never fundamentally believe on much and that ok.

No point in taking up pages of space. I'll leave it as agree to disagree.

I do wish you well though and pray you will get better soon.

Hey, I’m the one who is sick, not @RileyG , as far as I am aware. And I didn’t quote any Patristic material in this discussion other than the Nicene Creed, which is part of the CF.com Statement of Faith.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hey, I’m the one who is sick, not @RileyG , as far as I am aware. And I didn’t quote any Patristic material in this discussion other than the Nicene Creed, which is part of the CF.com Statement of Faith.

Ok, sorry, I hurt my wrist and having trouble typing. I can't keep up right now.

I hope you get better soon.

Signing out for now.

 

[The Liturgist]

@tall73 - she did not mention any specific churches, but referred to “the false churches”, and the phrasing of her statement is such that I don’t see it being specifically against any denomination. I mean, there are false churches, for example, the J/Ws, the Unitarians, and so on, so we know that to be the case, that there are counterfeit Christianities.

 

[The Liturgist]

Ok, sorry, I hurt my wrist and having trouble typing. I can't keep up right now.

I hope you get better soon.

Signing out for now.

Thank you, I am sorry you hurt your wrist and I will pray for you. God bless you!

 

[RileyG]

You mean what Jesus taught that is clear as day. This is where we differ and will probably never come to terms with. I believe what the bible teaches, especially with a thus saith the Lord, you follow church fathers on what was written outside of scripture.

We will never fundamentally believe on much and that ok.

No point in taking up pages of space. I'll leave it as agree to disagree.

I do wish you well though and pray you will get better soon.

Jesus never taught soul sleep. Look at the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The doctrine within Christianity is only a few hundred years old. From what I believe.

I’ll agree to disagree.

Yes, pray for the liturgist to get well soon. I’m quite healthy.

God bless

 

[tall73]

@tall73 - she did not mention any specific churches, but referred to “the false churches”, and the phrasing of her statement is such that I don’t see it being specifically against any denomination. I mean, there are false churches, for example, the J/Ws, the Unitarians, and so on, so we know that to be the case, that there are counterfeit Christianities.

She can certainly clarify who she means. But if she is following SDA doctrine, it is not unclear who she means.

They associate Rome with Babylon, and the churches that hold to doctrines which she taught to be her daughters.

They saw Luther, etc. as good in their time. But after the churches rejected the first angel's message through Miller, they see a decline in these churches. So while most see Adventists as restorationist, they see themselves as continuing the reformation.

There may still be children of God in the churches, who have not yet heard the SDA message for this time, but they are to come out, per their understanding.


Read this whole chapter:

The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 4

m.egwwritings.org

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In Revelation 17, Babylon is represented as a woman, a figure which is used in the Scriptures as the symbol of a church. A virtuous woman represents a pure church, a vile woman an apostate church. Babylon is said to be a harlot; and the prophet beheld her drunken with the blood of saints and martyrs. The Babylon thus described represents Rome, that apostate church which has so cruelly persecuted the followers of Christ. But Babylon the harlot is the mother of daughters who follow her example of corruption. Thus are represented those churches that cling to the doctrines and traditions of Rome and follow her worldly practices, and whose fall is announced in the second angel's message.​

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And a bit later:

Since the rejection of the first message, a sad change has taken place in the churches. As truth is spurned, error is received and cherished. Love for God, and faith in his word, have grown cold. The churches have grieved the Spirit of the Lord, and it has been in a great measure withdrawn.​

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The "first message" here has reference to the proclamation which they see starting with William Miller.

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[RileyG]

She can certainly clarify who she means. But if she is following SDA doctrine, it is not unclear who she means.

They associate Rome with Babylon, and the churches that hold to doctrines which she taught to be her daughters.

They saw Luther, etc. as good in their time. But after the churches rejected the first angel's message through Miller, they see a decline in these churches. So while most see Adventists as restorationist, they see themselves as continuing the reformation.

There may still be children of God in the churches, who have not yet heard the SDA message for this time, but they are to come out.


Read this whole chapter:

The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 4

m.egwwritings.org

​

​

In Revelation 17, Babylon is represented as a woman, a figure which is used in the Scriptures as the symbol of a church. A virtuous woman represents a pure church, a vile woman an apostate church. Babylon is said to be a harlot; and the prophet beheld her drunken with the blood of saints and martyrs. The Babylon thus described represents Rome, that apostate church which has so cruelly persecuted the followers of Christ. But Babylon the harlot is the mother of daughters who follow her example of corruption. Thus are represented those churches that cling to the doctrines and traditions of Rome and follow her worldly practices, and whose fall is announced in the second angel's message.​

Yes, that’s my understanding. Even Ellen G White taught that some true Christians can be found “Sunday” Churches per her visions.

 

[tall73]

Yes, that’s my understanding. Even Ellen G White taught that some true Christians can be found “Sunday” Churches per her visions.

Correct, and their understanding of the three angel's messages of Revelation include the call to come out of Babylon.

 

[tall73]

We see the SDA belief that the universal church includes all who truly believe in Christ in their fundamental beliefs:

The Remnant and Its Mission​

The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. This remnant announces the arrival of the judgment hour, proclaims salvation through Christ, and heralds the approach of His second advent. This proclamation is symbolized by the three angels of Revelation 14; it coincides with the work of judgment in heaven and results in a work of repentance and reform on earth. Every believer is called to have a personal part in this worldwide witness. (Dan. 7:9-14; Isa. 1:9; 11:11; Jer. 23:3; Mic. 2:12; 2 Cor. 5:10; 1 Peter 1:16-19; 4:17; 2 Peter 3:10-14; Jude 3, 14; Rev. 12:17; 14:6-12; 18:1-4.)​

The baptismal vows in the Church Manual are a bit more specific as to the identity of the remnant:

Do you accept and believe that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy and that people of every nation, race, and language are invited and accepted into its fellowship? Do you desire to be a member of this local congregation of the world Church?​

 

[tall73]

@tall73 - she did not mention any specific churches, but referred to “the false churches”, and the phrasing of her statement is such that I don’t see it being specifically against any denomination. I mean, there are false churches, for example, the J/Ws, the Unitarians, and so on, so we know that to be the case, that there are counterfeit Christianities.

The Great Controversy

m.egwwritings.org

Note also:

Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience.​

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and

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As the Protestant churches reject the clear, Scriptural arguments in defense of God's law, they will long to silence those whose faith they cannot overthrow by the Bible. Though they blind their own eyes to the fact, they are now adopting a course which will lead to the persecution of those who conscientiously refuse to do what the rest of the Christian world are doing, and acknowledge the claims of the papal sabbath. The dignitaries of church and state will unite to bribe, persuade, or compel all classes to honor the Sunday. The lack of divine authority will be supplied by oppressive enactments. Political corruption is destroying love of justice and regard for truth; and even in free America, rulers and legislators, in order to secure public favor, will yield to the popular demand for a law enforcing Sunday observance. Liberty of conscience, which has cost so great a sacrifice, will no longer be respected. In the soon-coming conflict we shall see exemplified the prophet's words: “The dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” Revelation 12:17.​

 

[tall73]

To give a bit more detail on how the Adventists view early reformers as saved since they didn't keep the Sabbath:

Early Writings, by Ellen G. White. The Open and the Shut Door

'And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut...

www.ellenwhite.info

Sabbath, March 24, 1849, we had a sweet and very interesting meeting with the brethren at Topsham, Maine. The Holy Ghost was poured out upon us, and I was taken off in the Spirit to the city of the living God. Then I was shown that the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ relating to the shut door could not be separated, and that the time for the commandments of God to shine out with all their importance, and for God's people to be tried on the Sabbath truth, was when the door was opened in the most holy place in the heavenly sanctuary, where the ark is, in which are contained the ten commandments. This door was not opened until the mediation of Jesus was finished in the holy place of the sanctuary in 1844. Then Jesus rose up and shut the door of the holy place, and opened the door into the most holy, and passed within the second veil, where He now stands by the ark, and where the faith of Israel now reaches.​

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I saw that Jesus had shut the door of the holy place, and no man can open it; and that He had opened the door into the most holy, and no man can shut it (Revelation 3:7,8); and that since Jesus has opened the door into the most holy place, which contains the ark, the commandments have been shining out to God's people, and they are being tested on the Sabbath question.​

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I saw that the present test on the Sabbath could not come until the mediation of Jesus in the holy place was finished and He had passed within the second veil; therefore Christians who fell asleep before the door was opened into the most holy, when the midnight cry was finished, at the seventh month, 1844, and who had not kept the true Sabbath, now rest in hope; for they had not the light and the test on the Sabbath which we now have since that door was opened. ​

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I saw that Satan was tempting some of God's people on this point. Because so many good Christians have fallen asleep in the triumphs of faith and have not kept the true Sabbath, they were doubting about its being a test for us now.​

 

[RileyG]

Correct, and their understanding of the three angel's messages of Revelation include the call to come out of Babylon.

Interesting, since no modern Christian denomination, as we understand, existed when John wrote revelation, but I’m getting off topic.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

All that and yet no scripture to prove your case. I am not interested in what other people think or teach about the bible, I care what the bible teaches.

There is no such church in scriptures that has a vastly different teachings of doctrines- so your statement that one can't receive the Holy Spirit unless part of "the church" but can't even agree on doctrine as if there is more than one Truth, when there is not. This goes back to what the bible teaches about the Holy Spirit and how one receives it and not one verse says we only receive it if we are part of "the Chruch". We will never be saved because we are part of "the church" our church can't save us, only Jesus saves. We each have to have our own personal relationship with Jesus Christ and have faith in Him and scripture shows us that someone with faith does not live like someone without faith. Rev 14:12 Thats why the Holy Spirit works with individuals if we hear His voice Heb 3:7-8. So many people are church centered when we need to be Christ centered. Christ is first, not the other way around.

You remind me so much of the Apostle Thomas; just has he needed to thrust his fingers in our Lord's wounds, so you must have precise and clear proof texts from Scripture. If you believe scripture is so precise, then with Scripture we have no need for faith.

What God put in the Bible is what God wants us to know and what we need to know.

Instead of demanding definitive proof texts, maybe start looking to supporting texts that support the mysteries of our rich faith.

It is a sad thing that the Church grew to the extent that it did before the compilation and proliferation of the Bible; yet today there is so little faith and trust when it comes to accepting the mysteries of the faith when the Word of God is more available than ever.

The Word of God does not replace the Mysteries; it support those mysteries.

 

[David Lamb]

You remind me so much of the Apostle Thomas; just has he needed to thrust his fingers in our Lord's wounds, so you must have precise and clear proof texts from Scripture. If you believe scripture is so precise, then with Scripture we have no need for faith.

What God put in the Bible is what God wants us to know and what we need to know.

Instead of demanding definitive proof texts, maybe start looking to supporting texts that support the mysteries of our rich faith.

It is a sad thing that the Church grew to the extent that it did before the compilation and proliferation of the Bible; yet today there is so little faith and trust when it comes to accepting the mysteries of the faith when the Word of God is more available than ever.

The Word of God does not replace the Mysteries; it support those mysteries.

The idea that Thomas wanting to see and feel the wounds of Jesus is just like somebody seeking proof of points of doctrine in God's Word is just not true. Thomas was refusing to believe what Jesus had told the disciples before His crucifixion that He would rise again. A Christian basing his or her beliefs on the Word of God is believing what God has said, without seeing it - in a sense doing the opposite of what Thomas did.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The idea that Thomas wanting to see and feel the wounds of Jesus is just like somebody seeking proof of points of doctrine in God's Word is just not true. Thomas was refusing to believe what Jesus had told the disciples before His crucifixion that He would rise again. A Christian basing his or her beliefs on the Word of God is believing what God has said, without seeing it - in a sense doing the opposite of what Thomas did.

And who was more blessed; Thomas who had to have physical proof, or those who believed without seeing? (There is definitive proof text for that BTW).

 

[David Lamb]

And who was more blessed; Thomas who had to have physical proof, or those who believed without seeing? (There is definitive proof text for that BTW).

Well, Jesus said:

“Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed [are] those who have not seen and [yet] have believed."” (Joh 20:29 NKJV)

He doesn't actually say that those who have not seen yet have believed are more blessed than Thomas.

Anyway, I assume that was the verse you meant.

 

[Valletta]

God bless you too my friend. And please pray for me as I have been extremely ill.

I'll pray for you too and I hope you have a blessed Feast of the Nativity of the Theotokos on Sunday.