Abused texts of Scripture: What is your example?

[SabbathBlessings]

False. I have provided verse after verse. 1 Corinthians 11:2 Galatians 1:8-9 Matthew 16:18 Matthew 28:19 Ephesians 4:5 Acts 2:38

As far as I am aware the RCC and the Lutherans share the Orthodox doctrine that we receive the Holy Spirit during the process of being grafted into the Church

None of those scriptures say we cannot receive the Holy Spirit unless we are grafted into "the church" first


The Holy Spirit is given to….

1. Those who ask
Luke 11:13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

2.Teach us all Truth
John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

3. Through repentance and baptism
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the [a]remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

4:To help obey God’s commandments through our love to Him
John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

5. Those who obey Him
Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

6. When we are led by the Spirit we become sons of God
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

The Holy Spirit is how one is guided, if we allow Him to guide us Heb 3:15 John 14:26, the Holy Spirit does not guide us into a church that has various doctrine. One salvation, one gospel, one Truth, not many.

God has one Church and these are its traits

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 12 Here is the [a]patience of the saints; here[b] are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

The church that teaches they have authority above God, to change His commandments, that most other churches follow, is not the church we are told to follow. Christ Church is a remnant who keep God's commandments, the way God wrote and God spoke as no one is above God our Lord and Savior.

I am going to stick with what the promises of scripture, but thanks for your thoughts.

 

[The Liturgist]

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary

Intercession
(n.) Mediation between parties at variance; prayer, petition, or entreaty on behalf of another.

Please provide a link, screenshot or photographic capture of the entire entry for Intercession where you are reading that from, because that clashes both with the online Oxford English dictionary via Google,


Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
in·ter·ces·sion
/ˌin(t)ərˈseSH(ə)n/
noun
the action of intervening on behalf of another.
"through the intercession of friends, I was able to obtain her a sinecure"
Similar:
mediation
intermediation
negotiation
arbitration
conciliation
intervention
interposition
involvement
action
pleading
petition
entreaty
supplication
good offices
agency
shuttle diplomacy
mediatorship
the action of saying a prayer on behalf of another person.
"prayers of intercession"


and Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary:

Definition of INTERCESSION

the act of interceding; prayer, petition, or entreaty in favor of another… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[The Liturgist]

None of those scriptures say we cannot receive the Holy Spirit unless we are grafted into "the church" first

For the SIXTH TIME, I didn’t say that either! This is absurd. You are arguing with me on the basis of an argument that I never made.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

For the SIXTH TIME, I didn’t say that either! This is absurd. You are arguing with me on the basis of an argument that I never made.

FYI, your reply is literally addressed to a post made by my friend @MarkRohfrietsch . So perhaps you replied to him by mistake?

As far as I am aware the RCC and the Lutherans share the Orthodox doctrine that we receive the Holy Spirit during the process of being grafted into the Church through baptism or chrismation/confirmation or other means. But all three churches would agree that this does not deprive the church, however it is defined ecclesiologically, from its teaching authority.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Please provide a link, screenshot or photographic capture of the entire entry for Intercession where you are reading that from, because that clashes both with the online Oxford English dictionary via Google,


Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
in·ter·ces·sion
/ˌin(t)ərˈseSH(ə)n/
noun
the action of intervening on behalf of another.
"through the intercession of friends, I was able to obtain her a sinecure"
Similar:
mediation
intermediation
negotiation
arbitration
conciliation
intervention
interposition
involvement
action
pleading
petition
entreaty
supplication
good offices
agency
shuttle diplomacy
mediatorship
the action of saying a prayer on behalf of another person.
"prayers of intercession"


and Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary:

Definition of INTERCESSION

the act of interceding; prayer, petition, or entreaty in favor of another… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

You can't trust modern dictionaries. If you look at old ones, the new ones have entirety different definitions. The one who changed God's times and laws re-wrote most of what you see on the internet. So much history has been washed and re-written.

The source is below

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
(n.) Mediation between parties at variance; prayer, petition, or entreaty on behalf of another.

 

[The Liturgist]

God has one Church and these are its traits

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 12 Here is the [a]patience of the saints; here[b] are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Those are some of its traits. But it has others, according to the Bible. For example, the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it. It is the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, and it is something we are grafted onto in the process of salvation, which also entails the indwelling of the Holy Spirt.

 

[The Liturgist]

You can't trust modern dictionaries. If you look at old ones, the new ones have entirety different definitions. The one who changed God's times and laws re-wrote most of what you see on the internet. So much history has been washed and re-written.

The source is below

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
(n.) Mediation between parties at variance; prayer, petition, or entreaty on behalf of another.

Forgive me, but that’s not evidence I can accept. I have no way of knowing that Webster’s says what you say, since you haven’t even provided the publication date, but you have indicated that it is not the current edition, so you are asking me to believe the above is the entire definition of the word “Intercession” according to the unabridged dictionary, which normally provides multiple definitions and use cases for a word? And you haven’t even given me enough information to be able to look up and verify which version you are quoting.

Furthermore, I would also stress, I am using the word intercessory in a modern context, according to the contemporary idioms of the English language, and you are basically using an extra-Biblical text to force an interpretation onto the word “Mediator” which is at odds with the beliefs of the majority of Christians, past and present.

I reject entirely your attack on “Modern dictionaries”, and also your appeal to a specific individual dictionary, when you attacked me for citing an extra-scriptural document in the form of the Nicene Creed, as though that dictionary were some sort of inspired adjunct to scripture, when in fact Webster’s is by its nature a secular publication, and by no means infallible, as grossly vexatious.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Those are some of its traits. But it has others, according to the Bible. For example, the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it. It is the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, and it is something we are grafted onto in the process of salvation, which also entails the indwelling of the Holy Spirt.

Those traits are huge, not many churches get past those....

Christ is first, He is our salvation and through Christ we become part of His Church. Not through the church we become part of Christ that is backwards.

In Christ church we keep His commandments and have the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12 How did Jesus live, what did He teach. That is how we are to live and He is the example we are to follow 1 John 2:3-6 if one is following a church, over what Jesus taught one might end up where they ought not to. Mat 15:3-14 Mat 5:19-20

 

[RileyG]

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary

Intercession
(n.) Mediation between parties at variance; prayer, petition, or entreaty on behalf of another.

I'm not surprised you don't believe in the intercession of saints since SDA teaches soul sleep, which only the SDA and JW believe.

From the traditional Christian perspective, the Saints are very much alive in Christ.

Blessings

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I'm not surprised you don't believe in the intercession of saints since SDA teaches soul sleep, which only the SDA and JW believe.

From the traditional Christian perspective, the Saints are very much alive in Christ.

Blessings

I do not know what JW teach, I am not part of them

But Jesus taught when one is dead they sleep....until the Resurrection of Life or death- Judgment

John 11:9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. 10 But if one walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.” 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

Jesus never taught to pray to anyone but Him.

 

[RileyG]

I do not know what JW teach, I am not part of them

But Jesus taught when one is dead they sleep....until the Resurrection of Life or death- Judgment

John 11:9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. 10 But if one walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.” 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

Jesus never taught to pray to anyone but Him.

I disagree with your proof text.

Soul sleeps as never taught by the historical Church nor the Church Fathers.

Luther may have flirted with the idea, but he never officially believed in it.

 

[The Liturgist]

@SabbathBlessings

What I wrote, that you seem determined to use against me, actually vindicates me “As far as I am aware the RCC and the Lutherans share the Orthodox doctrine that we receive the Holy Spirit during the process of being grafted into the Church through baptism or chrismation/confirmation or other means. But all three churches would agree that this does not deprive the church, however it is defined ecclesiologically, from its teaching authority.”

Note that in that sentence I did not say that one had to be grafted in first, as a prerequisite - rather I stated that we receive the Holy Spirit during the process of being grafted into the Church. It is literally the reverse of what you are saying. Being grafted in is dependent upon us receiving the Holy Spirit, among other things, and not vice versa.

And this can be conclusively proven from Scripture:

The New Testament emphasizes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers as a crucial aspect of being incorporated into the Church, which aligns with the idea of being "grafted in." The following verses are among the many that show that receiving the Holy Spirit is both a mark of belonging to Christ and a key element of becoming part of the Body of Christ, the Church:

1. Romans 8:9-11 (NIV)
"You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you."

This passage indicates that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is essential to belonging to Christ and being part of the Church. The Spirit’s presence in believers affirms their membership in the Body of Christ.

2. 1 Corinthians 12:13 (NIV)
"For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."

This verse explicitly links the reception of the Holy Spirit with incorporation into the Body of Christ, showing that the Spirit unites believers into one Church, regardless of their background. And it defines that incorporation as being through baptism, which is a primary means of grace that the Church exists to provide to the people who follow Christ, and the ordinary means of reception into the Church.

3. Ephesians 1:13-14 (NIV)
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory."

This scripture emphasizes that the Holy Spirit is received upon belief in Christ, marking believers as members of God’s people, which includes being part of the Church.

4. Acts 2:38 (NIV)
"Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'"

In this verse, Peter connects baptism and repentance with receiving the Holy Spirit, indicating that the Spirit’s indwelling is a key part of the conversion process and entry into the Christian Church, which is the Body of Christ.

These, and other passages, collectively demonstrate that receiving the Holy Spirit is integral to becoming part of the Church, aligning with the broader theme of being grafted into the Body of Christ.

Thus, you falsely asserted that I said that being baptized was a prerequisite to receiving the Holy Spirit, and at one point even suggested that I was saying that the Church convicts people of sin, prompting them to convert, and not the Holy Spirit, which is incorrect. The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, prompting us to be converted to Christ, in which we are baptized and receive the Holy Spirit.

One cannot be received into the Church without receiving the Holy Spirit. And one cannot receive the Holy Spirit without being received into the Church. The two are co-dependent upon each other, as opposed to it being a prerequisite, as you inserted.

Do you understand the difference between a co-dependency and a prerequisite?

 

[RileyG]

Thank you @The Liturgist for backing up with Scripture.

God bless

 

[The Liturgist]

Thank you @The Liturgist for backing up with Scripture.

God bless

God bless you too my friend. And please pray for me as I have been extremely ill.

 

[tall73]

There's a promise in the scripture that the Holy Spirit will teach you all things John 14:26, we don't need "the church" meaning the RCC to tell one what to believe or think, which laws can be changed on their authority over God’s..

That promise wasn't given to you or I, it was given to the Apostles (the Church)

I disagree, if you don't think the Holy Spirit teaches you things, its not what I believe or what the scriptures teach or my experience.

His claim was a bit more specific. It did not address whether the Holy Spirit is able to convict people, bear fruit, or even direct people today.

He said that the particular promise in question was not made to you. And that is correct. It was made to the apostles. Any application to us today would be secondary.

We know this from the larger context in which Jesus was speaking to the disciples before His crucifixion. And we know this from the immediate context:

John 14:25-26​

25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. (NKJV)​

Neither you, nor I, were present on earth to hear Jesus speak to us, so that the Spirit might recall to mind what was said.

The apostles were. And they were charged with being witnesses of Jesus' death and resurrection for sins, as well as all of what He had taught. The Holy Spirit would make sure that they were ready to do that, and lead them into all truth.

Likewise, in the same overall narrative, and adjacent to the promise that the Spirit would convict the world of sin that you referenced, He notes that the He has much to tell the disciples, but they are not yet ready to hear it. But the Spirit, once they have received it, will lead them into all truth.

​

John 16:7-13 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.​

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. (NKJV)​

These have primary application to the apostles. They were there, they heard His words, it was they who were not yet ready to understand all He had to say. They were entrusted with the message of Christ. But the Spirit had to continue to teach them, and recall all of Christ's prior teaching.

And on a larger level, this does not undermine reliance on Scripture, because the foundational apostles went on to share this truth that the Spirit revealed in the Scriptures, both in recalling what Jesus taught, and in the new things revealed.

Nor does it mean the Spirit cannot convict of sin, or lead believers today, or bear fruit today, etc. But it does point out the particular role of the foundational apostles in the church.

Now, obviously those who hold to apostolic succession are going to view Scripture within a larger tradition, and see some elements of that role of the original apostles passed down, which is a legitimate difference. You should focus on that aspect, perhaps.

But his contention that the promise in that verse was not to you was accurate. It doesn't limit the Spirit to acknowledge that. it shows the role of the apostles.

 

[The Liturgist]

I disagree with your proof text.

Soul sleeps as never taught by the historical Church nor the Church Fathers.

Luther may have flirted with the idea, but he never officially believed in it.

It’s not a Lutheran doctrine, and it can’t even be debated in Denomination Specific Theology - according to the CF.com Statement of Faith that belief, along with Universalism and a few others, must be debated in Controversial Christian Theology, so I am not going to derail my friend @Ain't Zwinglian ’s thread any more on the basis of that.

 

[RileyG]

It’s not a Lutheran doctrine, and it can’t even be debated in Denomination Specific Theology - according to the CF.com Statement of Faith that belief, along with Universalism and a few others, must be debated in Controversial Christian Theology, so I am not going to derail my friend @Ain't Zwinglian ’s thread any more on the basis of that.

Correct. Thank you.

 

[RileyG]

God bless you too my friend. And please pray for me as I have been extremely ill.

My prayers are with you.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

+

@SabbathBlessings

What I wrote, that you seem determined to use against me, actually vindicates me “As far as I am aware the RCC and the Lutherans share the Orthodox doctrine that we receive the Holy Spirit during the process of being grafted into the Church through baptism or chrismation/confirmation or other means. But all three churches would agree that this does not deprive the church, however it is defined ecclesiologically, from its teaching authority.”

Note that in that sentence I did not say that one had to be grafted in first, as a prerequisite - rather I stated that we receive the Holy Spirit during the process of being grafted into the Church. It is literally the reverse of what you are saying. Being grafted in is dependent upon us receiving the Holy Spirit, among other things, and not vice versa.

And this can be conclusively proven from Scripture:

The New Testament emphasizes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers as a crucial aspect of being incorporated into the Church, which aligns with the idea of being "grafted in." The following verses are among the many that show that receiving the Holy Spirit is both a mark of belonging to Christ and a key element of becoming part of the Body of Christ, the Church:

1. Romans 8:9-11 (NIV)
"You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you."

This passage indicates that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is essential to belonging to Christ and being part of the Church. The Spirit’s presence in believers affirms their membership in the Body of Christ.

2. 1 Corinthians 12:13 (NIV)
"For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."

This verse explicitly links the reception of the Holy Spirit with incorporation into the Body of Christ, showing that the Spirit unites believers into one Church, regardless of their background. And it defines that incorporation as being through baptism, which is a primary means of grace that the Church exists to provide to the people who follow Christ, and the ordinary means of reception into the Church.

3. Ephesians 1:13-14 (NIV)
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory."

This scripture emphasizes that the Holy Spirit is received upon belief in Christ, marking believers as members of God’s people, which includes being part of the Church.

4. Acts 2:38 (NIV)
"Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'"

In this verse, Peter connects baptism and repentance with receiving the Holy Spirit, indicating that the Spirit’s indwelling is a key part of the conversion process and entry into the Christian Church, which is the Body of Christ.

These, and other passages, collectively demonstrate that receiving the Holy Spirit is integral to becoming part of the Church, aligning with the broader theme of being grafted into the Body of Christ.

Thus, you falsely asserted that I said that being baptized was a prerequisite to receiving the Holy Spirit, and at one point even suggested that I was saying that the Church convicts people of sin, prompting them to convert, and not the Holy Spirit, which is incorrect. The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, prompting us to be converted to Christ, in which we are baptized and receive the Holy Spirit.

One cannot be received into the Church without receiving the Holy Spirit. And one cannot receive the Holy Spirit without being received into the Church. The two are co-dependent upon each other, as opposed to it being a prerequisite, as you inserted.

Do you understand the difference between a co-dependency and a prerequisite?

So are you denying that individuals can receive the Holy Spirit or only can be received when in the process of being grafted into the church?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

His claim was a bit more specific. It did not address whether the Holy Spirit is able to convict people, bear fruit, or even direct people today.

He said that the particular promise in question was not made to you. And that is correct. It was made to the apostles. Any application to us today would be secondary.

We know this from the larger context in which Jesus was speaking to the disciples before His crucifixion. And we know this from the immediate context:

John 14:25-26​

25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. (NKJV)​

Neither you, nor I, were present on earth to hear Jesus speak to us, so that the Spirit might recall to mind what was said.

The apostles were. And they were charged with being witnesses of Jesus' death and resurrection for sins, as well as all of what He had taught. The Holy Spirit would make sure that they were ready to do that, and lead them into all truth.

Likewise, in the same overall narrative, and adjacent to the promise that the Spirit would convict the world of sin that you referenced, He notes that the He has much to tell the disciples, but they are not yet ready to hear it. But the Spirit, once they have received it, will lead them into all truth.

​

John 16:7-13 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.​

12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. (NKJV)​

These have primary application to the apostles. They were there, they heard His words, it was they who were not yet ready to understand all He had to say. They were entrusted with the message of Christ. But the Spirit had to continue to teach them, and recall all of Christ's prior teaching.

And on a larger level, this does not undermine reliance on Scripture, because the foundational apostles went on to share this truth that the Spirit revealed in the Scriptures, both in recalling what Jesus taught, and in the new things revealed.

Nor does it mean the Spirit cannot convict of sin, or lead believers today, or bear fruit today, etc. But it does point out the particular role of the foundational apostles in the church.

Now, obviously those who hold to apostolic succession are going to view Scripture within a larger tradition, and see some elements of that role of the original apostles passed down, which is a legitimate difference. You should focus on that aspect, perhaps.

But his contention that the promise in that verse was not to you was accurate. It doesn't limit the Spirit to acknowledge that. it shows the role of the apostles.

I believe the Holy Spirit will teach us all things of what God said- His Spirit of Truth, it comes with some conditions that not everyone agrees with John 14:15-18 Acts 5:32

Scripture says

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [a]instruction in righteousness,