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Abundance of Vernacular Scriptures before Wycliff

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Orthodox Christians have always read the scriptures in their native tongue, and yes, Saint Cyril invented an alphabet to give the scriptures to the Slavic people in their tongue. Thing is, most of them new scripture only from what they heard read and sung in the Liturgy.

And, scripture is much more easily memorized when sung to melody. This is why the Eastern Christians sing the entire service.

Eastern Christians also knew the gospel from the iconography of the Church.

But we have always had a different approach than the West. :)

Oh, I know that Iakovos - The East was far better with regards to scripture and the populace than the RC Church ever was in the rest of Europe.

But my quarrel never was with you, was it? :)
 
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RccWarrior

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You don't understand it because you won't see the facts here. No matter how much of history is truth, you still cannot recognize it.
In defense of my church, we will discuss Wycliff's death. Why then did she condemn Wycliff, one of her own priests, for translating it into English, and forbid her people to read his version of the Sacred Scriptures?? Because John Wycliff's version of the bible was not a correct version, and because he was using it as a means of corrupting the people's faith and of teaching them false doctrine; and it seems to me at least that that was a perfectly good reason for condemning it. For, please observe, that while the church approves of the people reading the Scriptures in their own language, she also claims the right to see that they really have a true version of the Scriptures to read, and not a mutilated or false or imperfect or heretical version. She claims that she alone has the right to make translations from the original languages (Greek or Hebrew) in which the Bible was written. She declares she will not tolerate that the people should be exposed to the danger of reading copies of Scripture which have changed or falsified something of the original Apostolic writing; which have added something or left out something;
Her people must have the correct Bible, or no Bible at all.
At first, he caused notoriety by taking part with the State against the claims of the Pope in regard to tribute money and benefices. But of course in a few years, went even further and began to oppose the church not only in matters of policy or government, but in things of faith. Being accused of preaching novel and uncommon doctrines, he was at the instance of Pope Gregory XI, summoned before the archbishop in 1378, and inhibited from teaching any further on the matters in dispute. No more proceedings were taken against him until 1381 when again he started. He attacked the Friars and Religious Orders with great bitterness; impugned transubstantiation, and seemed to advocate the theory that was peculiarly Luther's, ridiculed Inndulgences and flooded the country with pamphlets and tracts reeking with heresy. He was a "Lollard". The Lollards were a religious sect which rose in Germany in the beginning of the 14th century, and differed many points of doctrine from the Church of Rome, more especially as regards the Mass, Extreme Union, and Atonement for Sin.
Now, I ask any unprejudiced person, was this the kind of man to undertake the translation of the Bible into the common language of the people? Was he likely to be trusted by the church at that time to produce a thoroughly Catholic and free from all error or corruption---a man, notoriously eccentric, guilty of heretical and suspicious teaching, attacking the church in its authorities from the Pope down to the Friars. The question answers itself.
You may cry out that Wycliff was right and Rome was wrong in doctrine; that he was a glorious reformer and 'morning star of the Reformation' but this is not the point.
Wycliff was heretical in the eyes of Rome; that he produced a version for the purpose of attacking the Catholic church of that day, and of spreading his heresies; and to blame the church for forbidding him to do so. and for condemning his version, is about as sensible to blame an author for interdicting someone else from publishing a copy of his work that was full of errors and absurdities. The Catholic church certainly will NEVER allow a version of Holy Scripture (which is her own book) like that of Wycliff to go forth unchallenged, as if it were correct and authoritative
Once you grasp the Catholic Church's doctrinal position in regard to the Bible and the Rule of Faith, you will have no difficulty in accounting for her uncompromising hostility to versions like wycliff's, and for her action in condemning the Bible Societies which spread abroad a mutilated, corrupt, and incomplete copy of the Holy Scriptures with the design of undermining the faith of Catholics.
 
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Rdr Iakovos

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You don't understand it because you won't see the facts here. No matter how much of history is truth, you still cannot recognize it.
In defense of my church, we will discuss Wycliff's death. Why then did she condemn Wycliff, one of her own priests, for translating it into English, and forbid her people to read his version of the Sacred Scriptures?? Because John Wycliff's version of the bible was not a correct version, and because he was using it as a means of corrupting the people's faith and of teaching them false doctrine; and it seems to me at least that that was a perfectly good reason for condemning it. For, please observe, that while the church approves of the people reading the Scriptures in their own language, she also claims the right to see that they really have a true version of the Scriptures to read, and not a mutilated or false or imperfect or heretical version. She claims that she alone has the right to make translations from the original languages (Greek or Hebrew) in which the Bible was written. She declares she will not tolerate that the people should be exposed to the danger of reading copies of Scripture which have changed or falsified something of the original Apostolic writing; which have added something or left out something;
Her people must have the correct Bible, or no Bible at all.
At first, he caused notoriety by taking part with the State against the claims of the Pope in regard to tribute money and benefices. But of course in a few years, went even further and began to oppose the church not only in matters of policy or government, but in things of faith. Being accused of preaching novel and uncommon doctrines, he was at the instance of Pope Gregory XI, summoned before the archbishop in 1378, and inhibited from teaching any further on the matters in dispute. No more proceedings were taken against him until 1381 when again he started. He attacked the Friars and Religious Orders with great bitterness; impugned transubstantiation, and seemed to advocate the theory that was peculiarly Luther's, ridiculed Inndulgences and flooded the country with pamphlets and tracts reeking with heresy. He was a "Lollard". The Lollards were a religious sect which rose in Germany in the beginning of the 14th century, and differed many points of doctrine from the Church of Rome, more especially as regards the Mass, Extreme Union, and Atonement for Sin.
Now, I ask any unprejudiced person, was this the kind of man to undertake the translation of the Bible into the common language of the people? Was he likely to be trusted by the church at that time to produce a thoroughly Catholic and free from all error or corruption---a man, notoriously eccentric, guilty of heretical and suspicious teaching, attacking the church in its authorities from the Pope down to the Friars. The question answers itself.
You may cry out that Wycliff was right and Rome was wrong in doctrine; that he was a glorious reformer and 'morning star of the Reformation' but this is not the point.
Wycliff was heretical in the eyes of Rome; that he produced a version for the purpose of attacking the Catholic church of that day, and of spreading his heresies; and to blame the church for forbidding him to do so. and for condemning his version, is about as sensible to blame an author for interdicting someone else from publishing a copy of his work that was full of errors and absurdities. The Catholic church certainly will NEVER allow a version of Holy Scripture (which is her own book) like that of Wycliff to go forth unchallenged, as if it were correct and authoritative
Once you grasp the Catholic Church's doctrinal position in regard to the Bible and the Rule of Faith, you will have no difficulty in accounting for her uncompromising hostility to versions like wycliff's, and for her action in condemning the Bible Societies which spread abroad a mutilated, corrupt, and incomplete copy of the Holy Scriptures with the design of undermining the faith of Catholics.
As I understand it, Wycliffe's translation was actually quite good- he was a brilliant scholar. I think one of the things that was found to be problematic with his translations was the preface which he attached, or so I understand.
 
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Rdr Iakovos

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Oh, I know that Iakovos - The East was far better with regards to scripture and the populace than the RC Church ever was in the rest of Europe.

But my quarrel never was with you, was it? :)
Heavens no- a quarrel? :)

I was just musing on the difficulties, historically, with getting the gospel to the people, and how books alone wouldn't have solved the issue.

It is interesting that Byzantium never really had a 'dark age.' Well, until the Ottomans took over. But I digress.
J
 
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IamAdopted

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Funny How God does this isn't it.. He does seem to rise men up with in the enemies camp to lead His people out of Egypt..And those whom He is leading them away from seem to want to attack and kill.. Sounds like Moses.. Sounds like Christ..
 
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As I understand it, Wycliffe's translation was actually quite good- he was a brilliant scholar. I think one of the things that was found to be problematic with his translations was the preface which he attached, or so I understand.

Wycliffes translation doesn't differ all that much from the KJV translation.

I was just musing on the difficulties, historically, with getting the gospel to the people, and how books alone wouldn't have solved the issue.

Whilst books alone wouldn't have solved the issue, it would have helped it quite a lot.

It is interesting that Byzantium never really had a 'dark age.' Well, until the Ottomans took over. But I digress.

Good point actually.
 
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RccWarrior

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RccWarrior

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RccWarrior - Have you even read Wycliffes translation of the New Testament?

Wycliff, Luther, tyndsale, all heretics who tried BUT FAILED to change the doctrines of the one true church. Let's talk Tyndale now:
So much then for John Wycliff and his unhappy version. the next man of any consequence we are confronted with is another favorite of the Reformers, another 'martyr' for the Bible, William Tyndale.
His treatment is also flung in our teeth by critics, as fresh evidence of rome's implacable hatred of the open Bible. Did she not persecute and burn poor Tyndale, and consign his copy of the Scriptures in English to flames? So here again, we must show how wise and consistent was the action of the Catholic church in England in regard to Tyndale and his translations, and clear her absolutely from the slightest shadow of suspicion of hostility to God's Written word.
How could the bible be printed in 1456? Did not Luther discover it for the first time in 1507??? However, joking apart, the fact remains that we now have in our historical review arrived at the point where we bid farewell to copies of the Bible written by hand, and have to consider only those that were turned out by the printing press from 1456 onwards. On Protestant principals it must seem a pity that the Lord waited so many centuries before He invented printing machines to spread Bibles about among the people; and it seems also very hard on all preceding generations that slipped away without this lamp to their feet and light unto their path.
Tyndale (and Luther) were born almost a hundred years after Wycliff died, that is in 1484. He was a priest (as the world just had Catholic christians back then), he was seized of getting the Bible printed in England. Tyndale was utterly unfitted for such a great work. He says HIMSELF he was 'evil favoured in this world, and without grace in the sight of men, speechless and rude, dull and slow witted.' He had NO special qualifications of the task of translation. He was a mediocre scholar, and could not boast of anything above the average intellect. He was acting entirely on his own account, and without authorization from ecclesiastical superiors, either in England or in Rome. Go further to say he was acting in disobedience to the decision of higher authorities.
Unable therefore to proceed with the work in his own land because of ecclesiastical prohibition, Tyndale goes abroad, and after much wandering about settles in Worms, where in 1525 the Bible was printed and smuggled into England. At once it was denounced by the Bishop of London, and I do not deny the fact that copies of it were burned ceremonially at St. Paul's Cross. Why? Because it was a false and erroneous anti- Catholic version of the Holy Scriptures. It was full of Lutheran Heresies. Tyndale had fallen under the influence of the German Reformer, who by this time revolted from Rome. About 1522, he had been suspected and tried for heresy; he had declared "I defy the Pope and all his laws"; and he actually embodied in his English version, Luther's notes and explanation of texts, which were full of venom and hatred against Rome as an egg is full of meat. "It has long been a notorious fact", says Mr. Allnat (In his Bible and the Reformation) "That all the early Protestant versions of the Bible literally swarmed with gross and flagrant corruptions." Willful and deliberate mistranslation of various passages of the Sacred text, and all directly aimed at the Catholic Church which the 'Reformers" were most anxious to uproot.
Has the Catholic Church not as a matter of fact put a copy of the CORRECT copy of the Bible into the hands of her children in their own language in the Douai version?

Come on people, wake up..
 
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RccWarrior

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So, still copied from a site, yet no credit given?

Again, my statement towards the post in question still stands.

If I were you, I wouldn't worry where information comes from, but the information itself as proven in history and fact. Read what is written for I would worry about that first.
 
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RccWarrior

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Also S Walch, Let's talk about burning books...Luther burnt books of Canon Law, and the Bull of Pope Leo, and in 1522 John Calvin burnt all the copies he could collect of Servetus's bible at Geneva, because these contained some notes he did not think were Orthodox. Calvin went a step further than that---he burned Servetus himself!!! And surely it must be plain enough to everyone that, in the case before us, what the Ecclesiastical authorities meant to destroy was, not the Word of god, but the ERRORS of Luther and Tyndale which were corrupting it.
It's funny that King Henry VIII hated these volumes. He himself deliberately commanded all copies of it (along with Coverdale's) to be delivered up and burned. After this one finds it amusing to be told only priests and Popes burn and hate the Word of God. Henceforth Protestant readers of these lines would do well to remember that the Great Reformer and Founder of the church of England, Henry VIII, set a high example in this matter.
But another , and perhaps to Protestants a more telling proof of the statement is found in the fact that their subsequent versions of Scripture deliberately omitted Tyndale's most characteristic features, such as his notes, prefaces and prologues. they appeared then disappeared. They had their day and ceased to be. They were considered unfit to find a place in what purported to be a pure copy of the Apostle and Evangelist. Posterity, then, has justified sir Thomas More, and has condemned Tyndale. what is this but to vindicate the Church in her action towards the corrupt volume?

WISDOM IS INDEED 'JUSTIFIED OF HER CHILDREN'.
 
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picnic

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You don't understand it because you won't see the facts here. No matter how much of history is truth, you still cannot recognize it.
In defense of my church, we will discuss Wycliff's death. Why then did she condemn Wycliff, one of her own priests, for translating it into English, and forbid her people to read his version of the Sacred Scriptures?? Because John Wycliff's version of the bible was not a correct version, and because he was using it as a means of corrupting the people's faith and of teaching them false doctrine; and it seems to me at least that that was a perfectly good reason for condemning it. For, please observe, that while the church approves of the people reading the Scriptures in their own language, she also claims the right to see that they really have a true version of the Scriptures to read, and not a mutilated or false or imperfect or heretical version. She claims that she alone has the right to make translations from the original languages (Greek or Hebrew) in which the Bible was written. She declares she will not tolerate that the people should be exposed to the danger of reading copies of Scripture which have changed or falsified something of the original Apostolic writing; which have added something or left out something;
Her people must have the correct Bible, or no Bible at all.
At first, he caused notoriety by taking part with the State against the claims of the Pope in regard to tribute money and benefices. But of course in a few years, went even further and began to oppose the church not only in matters of policy or government, but in things of faith. Being accused of preaching novel and uncommon doctrines, he was at the instance of Pope Gregory XI, summoned before the archbishop in 1378, and inhibited from teaching any further on the matters in dispute. No more proceedings were taken against him until 1381 when again he started. He attacked the Friars and Religious Orders with great bitterness; impugned transubstantiation, and seemed to advocate the theory that was peculiarly Luther's, ridiculed Inndulgences and flooded the country with pamphlets and tracts reeking with heresy. He was a "Lollard". The Lollards were a religious sect which rose in Germany in the beginning of the 14th century, and differed many points of doctrine from the Church of Rome, more especially as regards the Mass, Extreme Union, and Atonement for Sin.
Now, I ask any unprejudiced person, was this the kind of man to undertake the translation of the Bible into the common language of the people? Was he likely to be trusted by the church at that time to produce a thoroughly Catholic and free from all error or corruption---a man, notoriously eccentric, guilty of heretical and suspicious teaching, attacking the church in its authorities from the Pope down to the Friars. The question answers itself.
You may cry out that Wycliff was right and Rome was wrong in doctrine; that he was a glorious reformer and 'morning star of the Reformation' but this is not the point.
Wycliff was heretical in the eyes of Rome; that he produced a version for the purpose of attacking the Catholic church of that day, and of spreading his heresies; and to blame the church for forbidding him to do so. and for condemning his version, is about as sensible to blame an author for interdicting someone else from publishing a copy of his work that was full of errors and absurdities. The Catholic church certainly will NEVER allow a version of Holy Scripture (which is her own book) like that of Wycliff to go forth unchallenged, as if it were correct and authoritative
Once you grasp the Catholic Church's doctrinal position in regard to the Bible and the Rule of Faith, you will have no difficulty in accounting for her uncompromising hostility to versions like wycliff's, and for her action in condemning the Bible Societies which spread abroad a mutilated, corrupt, and incomplete copy of the Holy Scriptures with the design of undermining the faith of Catholics.

Is anyone allowed to challenge the Catholic Church and how is your average layman supposed know that the Catholic church is telling the truth? These days they can check its teaching against the scriptures. In Wyclif's time they didn't have the scriptures in a language they understood and so without Wyclif's translation they were ignorant of the Bible's content.

It is also to be remembered that in those times the catholic church was a great political power as well as a religious power such that by keeping the peasants in general ignorance of the Bible and expecting them to submit to the church unquestioningly was to their advantage in maintaining both political and religious power.
 
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tulc

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If I were you, I wouldn't worry where information comes from, but the information itself as proven in history and fact. Read what is written for I would worry about that first.

Uhmm actually isn't that the point of your posts? The information has to from a "good" source or it's bad? When you post something without giving it's source you are, in essense, claiming authorship .
tulc(plus it's just good manners) :)
 
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RccWarrior

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Is anyone allowed to challenge the Catholic Church and how is your average layman supposed know that the Catholic church is telling the truth? These days they can check its teaching against the scriptures. In Wyclif's time they didn't have the scriptures in a language they understood and so without Wyclif's translation they were ignorant of the Bible's content.

It is also to be remembered that in those times the catholic church was a great political power as well as a religious power such that by keeping the peasants in general ignorance of the Bible and expecting them to submit to the church unquestioningly was to their advantage in maintaining both political and religious power.

No. No heretic will EVER change the doctrines given us by the Apostles. This is what you don't seem to understand:
It only remains now to show by contrast the calm, dignified, and reverent action taken by the Catholic Church, towards her own book. In 1609 the Old Testament was added, and the Catholic Bible in English was complete, and it is called the Douai Bible. It is the ONLY really complete Bible in English, for it contains those seven Books of the Old Testament that were, and are, omitted by the Protestants in their editions. So that we can claim to have not only the pure, unadulterated bible, but the whole of it, WITHOUT addition or subtraction; a translation of the Vulgate, which is itself the work of St. Jerome in the fourth century, which, again, is the most autoritative and CORRECT of ALL the early copies of Holy Scripture. The greatest scholar of his day, who had access to manuscripts and authorities that have now perished, and who, living so near the days of the Apostles, was able to produce a copy of the inspired writings, which, for correctness, can never be equalled.
 
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