Absurdities of so called science

[AV1611VET]

Religious people are more likely to be dishonest or immoral when they know they can get away with it.

Shades of Ananias and Sapphira!

Chalk up another scientific experiment that confirmed something we already read!

If any Christians were surprised by the amazing results of this esoteric experiment, please speak up!

I can just see tomorrow's [unheard-of] headlines:

• Christian General orders Subordinate into Thick of Battle, then Marries His Widow.

You scientists keep an eye on us now --- we just might disappear ---

 

[dad]

It is so ridiculous that people would need a god or religion to get them to behave. If that is so then it must be very awful to be in China or Japan where nobody would have any ethics or morality at all. Instead people wonder why it is necessary for some to have a church to teach what should be part of every ones' normal upbringing.

Well, Japan has some gods. China as well. But I suppose a firing squad, or other harsh penalties would tend to keep the godless in line somewhat! So? Besides, I heard a little bird tell me there could be up to 300 million Christians in China alone. Mao is dead. God is dancing the hochie koo!

 

[dad]

I'm pretty sure most anybody that actually does that for religious arguments pretty rapidly becomes an atheist.

On the contrary! I follow science to it's conclusion, a silly speck o soup, and smile ever so confidently. I see how they try to explain the moon, and giggle. I see how they grasp at the ridiculous to try to explain where the water on earth came from, and chuckle. I see the imaginary first life form huddled in a crevice in the twilight zone of the fables of science, and find a twinkle in my eye, and maybe a tear.

The absurdities of so called science ought to keep anyone on the straight and narrow.

 

[dad]

For fake so called science based on absurdities a lot has been accomplished... imagine how mighty the scientists would be if they could just think clearly..!

False. NOTHING has EVER been accomplished by so called science. Real knowedge of how this temporary universe state operates is what we use to actually do something! The fantasy construct fables of a past that never was, or a future that never will be, are what so called science deals in. Real science, for what it is, is Jim Dandy. Peachy keen. Honky dory.

 

[dad]

What persons of the fossilized brain dont know is that THEY are the ones incapable of learning anything based on something like actual evidence.

Vast mountains of data are there to show that the biblical account of creation just cant be squared with reality as we see it all around us. But, that has no effect on the fossilized mind.

...

I thought fossilization took a long time!? Man does not live a long time, so your parable is off, gal.

Creation is the only thing that can be squared with real science and what we see around us! Real science has nothing iut can say about it. If your brain was input balanced, you ought to know that!??

 

[dad]

Not sure. You ask me to assume this person actually can create ex nihilo, but how am I to assume this if a magic trick can be made to look like the real thing? Why is it logical for me to make the assumption ex nihilo can happen? If i am the friend being told about someone who can create ex nihilo, why should I believe when the more likely situation is that my friend was mistaken. If I believe such a claim without verification, its likely that i am very gullible.

now lets take this one step further. Why should i believe any event that breaks the rules of reality, when I diden't personally witness it? do I know when the actual witness is telling the truth or lying? Even if what the witness says is true, its a poor way to spread any beliefs. Beliefs should be based on facts. not hearsay. Otherwise its very likely my belief is someone else's lie

I think you are close here. Atheists, agnostics, naysayers, doubters, and the devoid, and those spiritually and mentally handicapped and limited by the present physical only are in no position to judge miracles, period.

Now, since you cannot offer anything but ignorance based guesses, or doubts or opinions about actions of God affecting the spiritual and physical, guess where that leaves you on the issue?? Uninformed..

 

[Jester4kicks]

False. NOTHING has EVER been accomplished by so called science. Real knowedge of how this temporary universe state operates is what we use to actually do something! The fantasy construct fables of a past that never was, or a future that never will be, are what so called science deals in. Real science, for what it is, is Jim Dandy. Peachy keen. Honky dory.

I just figured out why dad operates the way he does. At first, I was very confused by how someone could take such a strong position against any kind of scientific discovery.... but I get it now...

He's afraid. Rational scientific inquiry has the annoying tendancy of continually getting closer and closer to an absolute explanation. Always has. Always will. Even worse (for dad), the amount of scientific advancement is constantly growing. More and more research is being done, more and more experiments are being run, and more and more ideas are being proposed and tested.

Take a look at scientific discoveries in the last 2 thousands years or so...

Even WORSE (once again, just for dad) is that as science advances, religion and the supernatural fade away. So not only is scientific discovery discovery a threat to dad... it's a very real and dangerous threat!

Folks, the downside here is that there is no chance dad is going to change. Overcoming fear requires openness and the ability to look at things rationally. Dad has already displayed, multiple times, that he cannot do those things in regard to scientific inquiry and discovery.

Don't bother people... it's not worth your time.

 

[NailsII]

It is so ridiculous that people would need a god or religion to get them to behave. If that is so then it must be very awful to be in China or Japan where nobody would have any ethics or morality at all. Instead people wonder why it is necessary for some to have a church to teach what should be part of every ones' normal upbringing.

Absolutely, but I think that the secular Sweden is a much better example.
Note how it has a much lower crime rate than the religious America, and until a recent influx of a religious minority had among the lowest crime rates in the civilised world.

Shades of Ananias and Sapphira!

Chalk up another scientific experiment that confirmed something we already read!

If any Christians were surprised by the amazing results of this esoteric experiment, please speak up!

I can just see tomorrow's [unheard-of] headlines:

• Christian General orders Subordinate into Thick of Battle, then Marries His Widow.

You scientists keep an eye on us now --- we just might disappear ---

AV, you are the one who takes the moral high ground here.
Don't forget that the default American Christian position is that no god = no morality.

The comment might not be aimed at you personally, because you appear to be a man of high moral standards.
But to assume that this position can only be attained because of religious belief is a logical falacy.

 

[NailsII]

I think you are close here. Atheists, agnostics, naysayers, doubters, and the devoid, and those spiritually and mentally handicapped and limited by the present physical only are in no position to judge miracles, period.

Now, since you cannot offer anything but ignorance based guesses, or doubts or opinions about actions of God affecting the spiritual and physical, guess where that leaves you on the issue?? Uninformed..

If anyone wanted an example of how a lack of knowledge can be used to present an argument, see these kinds of posts.

Dad, it's only a story.

There are facts and morals in Jason and the Argonaughts, but no-one bases their whole life around the so-called messages....

 

[thaumaturgy]

Well, Japan has some gods. China as well. But I suppose a firing squad, or other harsh penalties would tend to keep the godless in line somewhat! So? Besides, I heard a little bird tell me there could be up to 300 million Christians in China alone. Mao is dead. God is dancing the hochie koo!

Let's compare and contrast:

U.S. prison population dwarfs that of other nations


Indeed, the United States leads the world in producing prisoners
...

The United States has, for instance, 2.3 million criminals behind bars, more than any other nation, according to data maintained by the International Center for Prison Studies at King's College London.


China, which is four times more populous than the United States, is a distant second, with 1.6 million people in prison. (That number excludes hundreds of thousands of people held in administrative detention, most of them in China's extrajudicial system of re-education through labor, which often singles out political activists who have not committed crimes.)(SOURCE)

(emphasis added)

And then there's this:

Last year, the United States ranked alongside humanitarian hearthrobs China, Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia as the largest users of the death penalty, and together, the five countries carried out 90% of the world's executions.(SOURCE)

At least 3,000 people (and probably considerably more) were sentenced to death during 2007, and at the end of the year around 25,000 were on death row around the world, with Pakistan and the USA accounting for about half this figure between them. China carries out by far the greatest number of actual executions - while Amnesty International has confirmed at least 470 executions there during 2007 the true figure has been estimated at up to 6,000. Outside China, at least 800 people were put to death in 23 countries during 2007, with Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iraq and the USA being the main contributors. Iran, Saudi Arabia and Yemen executed people for crimes committed when they were juveniles, in contravention of international law(SOURCE)

Then compare secular countries like Sweden (where about 85% of the population is non-believer, atheist or agnostic -- SOURCE)

Capital Punishment in Sweden was practiced up until 1910. It is now forbidden by the Swedish Constitution which clearly states that capital punishment, corporal punishment, and torture is strictly forbidden.(SOURCE)

Doesn't seem to be a really good "correlation" between religious countries and secular countries having a given amount of death sentences.

 

[AV1611VET]

Doesn't seem to be a really good "correlation" between religious countries and secular countries having a given amount of death sentences.

Is that in respect to, or in spite of, the Bible?

 

[thaumaturgy]

Is that in respect to, or in spite of, the Bible?

Nothing to do with the Bible. Just responding to Dad's assertion. Please follow along.

Read what Dad wrote, then read what I wrote.

 

[dad]

I just figured out why dad operates the way he does. At first, I was very confused by how someone could take such a strong position against any kind of scientific discovery.... but I get it now...

He's afraid. Rational scientific inquiry has the annoying tendancy of continually getting closer and closer to an absolute explanation. Always has. Always will. Even worse (for dad), the amount of scientific advancement is constantly growing. More and more research is being done, more and more experiments are being run, and more and more ideas are being proposed and tested.

It only gets closer to showing that God was tight all along, despite the wild eyed claims of poor little present state knowlege extrapolations to infinity and beyond!

Take a look at scientific discoveries in the last 2 thousands years or so...

The obdervations are in for that period of time, so there is no issue with there being the creation state in effect then, focus. It is the unknown, that so called science pretends to know, that we are dealing with, and slaying here, not what we do know!!

Even WORSE (once again, just for dad) is that as science advances, religion and the supernatural fade away. So not only is scientific discovery discovery a threat to dad... it's a very real and dangerous threat!

I don't give a rat's petouche about religion, and it can't fade fast enough for me. Is there a fund to donate to to make it fade faster?? As for the supernatural, that will always be here, in fact, there has been for many years a growing interst in it.

Folks, the downside here is that there is no chance dad is going to change.

We will have to take that as a tacit admission of defeat for your untenable position! You can't wave God, or the supernatural away, with the little wand of so called science. Thanks for that.

Overcoming fear requires openness and the ability to look at things rationally. Dad has already displayed, multiple times, that he cannot do those things in regard to scientific inquiry and discovery.

It is only where the rubber leaves the road of this known state, that the problem lies, you may not hide behind the tested, and observed, and known parts of the dress of science, to cover godless so called science!

 

[dad]

If anyone wanted an example of how a lack of knowledge can be used to present an argument, see these kinds of posts.

Dad, it's only a story.

There are facts and morals in Jason and the Argonaughts, but no-one bases their whole life around the so-called messages....

And there are facts and morals in modern experience, and science. But that is no reason to launch into godless insanity, and pretend to speak of things far far beyond the limited scope, experience, and knowledge of the present men on earth. It is the least I could do to expose your absolute inability to put the proof on the table. Seems like every time you big talking so called science devotees have your feet held to the fire, you choke.

 

[dad]

Let's compare and contrast:

(emphasis added)

And then there's this:

Then compare secular countries like Sweden (where about 85% of the population is non-believer, atheist or agnostic -- SOURCE)

You seem to have missed the forest for the trees here. The US is a secular country. This is news?? Otherwise, if someone kicked prayer out of the schools, they could be executed. No? Just like in China, if you tried to have someone force prayer to Jesus in schools, you might get whacked. No? Doesn't that moot your point?

Doesn't seem to be a really good "correlation" between religious countries and secular countries having a given amount of death sentences.

I think we might compare Sweden more to the prisons. How much crime exists when there is little or no freedom?

 

[Nathan Poe]

And there are facts and morals in modern experience, and science. But that is no reason to launch into godless insanity, and pretend to speak of things far far beyond the limited scope, experience, and knowledge of the present men on earth.

Putting "God" in front of it all only makes it even more insane -- as you have cheerfully demonstrated.

It is the least I could do to expose your absolute inability to put the proof on the table. Seems like every time you big talking so called science devotees have your feet held to the fire, you choke.

You have a largely overinflated view of yourself and perceived importance, dad -- a quality I've often noticed in fundies, which I suspect drives many of them to fundamentalism in the first place.

 

[dad]

Putting "God" in front of it all only makes it even more insane -- as you have cheerfully demonstrated.

So let's look at this. You think that taking God out of all things is the essence of reason. OK. Too bad there is no reason to do that. Work on that.

You have a largely overinflated view of yourself and perceived importance, dad -- a quality I've often noticed in fundies, which I suspect drives many of them to fundamentalism in the first place.

Sorry if you are so delusional now, that you actually believe man is but an insignificant beast, and relative of the flatworm, and cockroach! If you remembered any of the faith of our fathers you backslid from, by your own admission, you might clue in, as to where that notion comes from. ...The enemy of man. I can tell you we are important, and extremely so! The beasts that exist here, and plants, and galaxies we see are created FOR us. WE are the reason for it all. They exist for our pleasure, and use, and benefit, and for no other reason. We are anything BUT a meaningless speck. Yet your knowledge spawns all stars from a meaningless speck!! Don't EVER, ever, ever begin to think you can hold a candle to us. WE will rule. Those that tried to deny God to the children will rot in hell, or, if saved, and fallen, taste hell..

 

[thaumaturgy]

You seem to have missed the forest for the trees here. The US is a secular country.

Indeed our government is by necessity pluralistic, but need I remind you:

Among developed nations, the US is one of the most religious in terms of its demographics. According to a 2002 study by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, (SOURCE)

But perhaps you missed the whole discussion of Sweden with a huge number of non-believers or agnostics and their lack of capital punishment which speaks directly to your point about morality induced by "firing squads" to keep the godless in line.

Again, your correlation breaks down.

I think we might compare Sweden more to the prisons. How much crime exists when there is little or no freedom?

What??? Sweden is a constitutional monarchy based on a parliamentary democracy.

I honestly don't understand what you are saying here. Are you saying Sweden is like a prison?

I would hardly call any of the nordic countries "prisons". In my travels to Norway, Iceland and Finland I'd have to say if any place up there is a "prison" I'd jump on the first paddy wagon taking me there. I will confess to never having been to Sweden, though. What was your experience when travelling there, Dad?

(NOTE TO ANY SWEDES HIRING CHEMISTS or GEOCHEMISTS: I am available and interested in moving. Please PM me and I will send you my cv!)

 

[WilliamduBois]

Are you surprised Dad is talking nonsense, Thaumaturgy? :-/

 

[thaumaturgy]

Are you surprised Dad is talking nonsense, Thaumaturgy? :-/

Oh not at all!

I expect nothing less form Dad.

But he did have a point that the governance of the U.S. is secular so I was merely trying to clarify the break in the correlation. I do this stuff with Dad more for my own peace of mind to make sure my points are tidied up, rather than trying to actually get a "discussion" with Dad. That isn't going to happen.

And, besides, this gives me yet another chance to brown nose the various Nordic folks on the board who can get me a job in Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland or Denmark. When I was finishing my second postdoc I got to give a presentation at Statoil in Trondheim and then desperately tried to get a job there. No luck. I'd wash dishes for a living in Iceland and I'd bus tables for a job in Norway. I'd probably want a better job if I lived in Finland. I liked Finland but I only got to see Espoo and Helsinki so I know they've got two places in Espoo I could work at right next to each other there: the KCL and The GTK are within walking distance from each other there in the Tapiola region!

I'm already prepped:
Hauska tavataa, my new employer!