Absurdities of so called science

[Nathan Poe]

Fair enough.On the basis of what evidence? Jesus could stand right in front of you and create an apple ex nihilo into the palm of your hand, and, according to my Apple Challenge thread, you'd consider Him everything but real.

No, we'd consider you everything but real. Once again you've lost track of the fact that you are not Jesus.

Note specifically as you browse that thread the number of times someone suggested "taking him to Guam", or making him do it again, or videotaping it, or whatever. I have a feeling that if He refused to co-operate, it would be curtains.

Your feelings have been wrong before -- on a regular basis.

 

[Garyzenuf]

Would Jesus have to do miracles for people to believe in him?

I mean is that still a prerequisite today for being a Diety?

*

 

[MoonLancer]

MoonLancer, I'm saying it really happened so as to cut the scenario way short.

For the sake of brevity, let's go with actual, omnipotent, the real McCoy, ex nihilo.

And again, I'll ask you this question a second time:

• Why would someone stoop to using magic, if they can really do it?

Not sure. You ask me to assume this person actually can create ex nihilo, but how am I to assume this if a magic trick can be made to look like the real thing? Why is it logical for me to make the assumption ex nihilo can happen? If i am the friend being told about someone who can create ex nihilo, why should I believe when the more likely situation is that my friend was mistaken. If I believe such a claim without verification, its likely that i am very gullible.

now lets take this one step further. Why should i believe any event that breaks the rules of reality, when I diden't personally witness it? do I know when the actual witness is telling the truth or lying? Even if what the witness says is true, its a poor way to spread any beliefs. Beliefs should be based on facts. not hearsay. Otherwise its very likely my belief is someone else's lie

 

[tcampen]

If one has often experienced the illusion of creation ex nihilo, but never actual creation ex nihilo, then what would be most reasonable to conclude when one sees an item appear from nowhere?

This is not an issue of dogmatic doubt, but extremely reasonable doubt.

 

[AV1611VET]

If one has often experienced the illusion of creation ex nihilo, but never actual creation ex nihilo, then what would be most reasonable to conclude when one sees an item appear from nowhere?

This is not an issue of dogmatic doubt, but extremely reasonable doubt.

What do you mean by, "the illusion of creation ex nihilo"?

 

[MrGoodBytes]

What do you mean by, "the illusion of creation ex nihilo"?

As in: pulling a rabbit out of a top hat.

 

[Chalnoth]

As in: pulling a rabbit out of a top hat.

Or a coin out of somebody's ear.

 

[Hespera]

As easy as it is in the -supposedly educated- USA today for charlatans to trick people with their 'psychic" powers, etc, just imagine how easy it is in say, Africa.

Or how easy it would have been with the credulous, superstitious, uneducated people of the middle east a couple thousand years ago.

I am not suggesting that Jesus would have deliberately tried to trick people. I think that would have been totally unnecessary, chances are that stories... as they do...
got invented out of thin air, and other things were exaggerated with every telling, until the original event couldnt be recognized.

Now that we dont think mental illness is caused by "demons possession" any more the story about him driving the demons out of a guy, and into a herd of pigs.... that is jsut a story. ( I didnt see where he offered to compensate the poor guy who supposedly lost his herd of pigs! In those days that could represent all the wealth he had in the world)

 

[atomweaver]

I currently have 10 times more posts correct than your post count x your age, newbie.

Insanity; doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting a different result.

 

[AV1611VET]

Insanity; doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting a different result.

Kinda like playing the Wilkes-Barre Variation of the Queen's Gambit Declined over and over until you win, right?

 

[Hespera]

quote: currently have 10 times more posts correct than your post count x your age, newbie.

Insanity; doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting a different result.

The weird thing is he is PROUD of it. Gives him a basis for calling names! Like those who dwell outside of mommas basement are somehow inferior.

There are some real odd characters in this forum who rave, posture and pronounce and generally would be a total discredit to any group they belong to. People on the fringes of society and sanity, apparently.

Fortunately they dont represent Christianity any more than the unibomber represents math professors. I wouldnt let them influence me one way of the other.

They are sort of interesting for a while though, as case studies in strange thinking.

 

[atomweaver]

Let's assume someone showed up for 24 hours to do some pretty spectacular things:

SCIENTISTS: Make an apple appear out of nowhere.
PERFORMER: There you go.
SCIENTISTS: Wow! How'd you do that?
PERFORMER: It's called "ex nihilo" --- out of nothing.
SCIENTISTS: Do it again.
PERFORMER: There you go.
SCIENTISTS: Hmmm --- we need to analyze this --- please accompany us to...
PERFORMER: Sorry, I have other things to do right now.
SCIENTISTS: But we need to test you under controlled conditions in a laboratory setting.
PERFORMER: Sorry, I have other things to do right now.
SCIENTISTS: You "appear" to have a vast amount of power at your disposal to just be walking around unchecked.
PERFORMER: I'll be gone at this time tomorrow.
SCIENTISTS: What's your business here?
PERFORMER: To demonstrate the fact that there are other forces in this universe you don't know about.
SCIENTISTS: Like what? What are you planning to further demonstrate?
PERFORMER: Healing, for example --- complete and instantaneous healing --- at your local hospital.
SCIENTISTS: Well, first, please accom...
PERFORMER: Sorry, I have other things to do right now.
SCIENTISTS: Someone call 911!

Pretty accurate, except that the last three lines go very wrong. They should read something like;

SCIENTISTS: Wow, if its true that'd be cool to see, and more good evidence for us. If we give you a ride to the hospital, can we watch?
PERFORMER: Uh, sure.
SCIENTISTS: Let's go, then.


Hey, does AVVET's story of the "24 hour Drive-by Second Coming" remind anybody else of the plot line to K-PAX? *shudder* Poor Kevin Spacey, I still pity him for being in that movie.

 

[AV1611VET]

Pretty accurate, except that the last three lines go very wrong. They should read something like;

SCIENTISTS: Wow, if its true that'd be cool to see, and more good evidence for us. If we give you a ride to the hospital, can we watch?
PERFORMER: Uh, sure.
SCIENTISTS: Let's go, then.

After assuming there's a guy walking around wielding unusual power that needs further investigation, you would accompany this guy to a hospital?

 

[Hespera]

Pretty accurate, except that the last three lines go very wrong. They should read something like;

SCIENTISTS: Wow, if its true that'd be cool to see, and more good evidence for us. If we give you a ride to the hospital, can we watch?
PERFORMER: Uh, sure.
SCIENTISTS: Let's go, then.


Hey, does AVVET's story of the "24 hour Drive-by Second Coming" remind anybody else of the plot line to K-PAX? *shudder* Poor Kevin Spacey, I still pity him for being in that movie.

The story line is way too long. It goes like this:

Fake / fraud / charlatan / psychic / stage magician: Watch me do magic

Scientist: Lets see you do that in the lab.

Fake: Here is my laundry list of excuses.

Something that really really amazes me is that so many people believe in psychic stuff.

I mean ONE verifiable repeatable demonstration and you would be the sensation of the world, you could overthrow about all that is known about the world and science.

An item on the laundry list of excuses is that the miracle stuff only happened long ago.

 

[atomweaver]

quote: currently have 10 times more posts correct than your post count x your age, newbie.




The weird thing is he is PROUD of it. Gives him a basis for calling names! Like those who dwell outside of mommas basement are somehow inferior.

My working theory is that the sin of variance* is AVVET's greatest vice, and he uses C/E as an outlet for that, without the risk of running afoul of his God. I expect he'd like nothing more than to tell other Xians what he thinks of their "angle" on God and the Bible, but is largely prevented from doing so by the precepts of Independent Baptist theology.
Ad nauseam repetition of his peculiar version of Creation-kookery in front of an audience that doesn't share his theological views is a surrogate way of almost-indulging in that sin... on an hourly basis, no less.


* Variance - since you're relatively new, and the topic was only discussed a couple of times in the past two years here, I'll explain it to you. Variance as defined here is a sin enacted by the public disagreement on matters of faith between two Christians in front of non-Christians. AVVET considers it a sin to have a theological argument in a public forum between two people who declare Christianity as their faith. You, as an atheist, don't "count", and so he can indulge in arguing with you to his heart's content. To AVVET's "credit" towards his faith (but to the detriment of the C/E debate, itself), you'll find he rarely argues theology with anyone sporting a Christian faith icon, be they Creationist or TE... it seems that atheists as surrogates for variance works effectively to keep him from sinning.

 

[atomweaver]

The story line is way too long. It goes like this:

Fake / fraud / charlatan / psychic / stage magician: Watch me do magic

Scientist: Lets see you do that in the lab.

Fake: Here is my laundry list of excuses.

Something that really really amazes me is that so many people believe in psychic stuff.

I mean ONE verifiable repeatable demonstration and you would be the sensation of the world, you could overthrow about all that is known about the world and science.

An item on the laundry list of excuses is that the miracle stuff only happened long ago.

Oh, yaah. I'm assuming legitimate miracles in my altered ending to the story. Although as the driver, I admit I'd try to steer PERFORMER towards a recovering amputee...

 

[Tomk80]

After assuming there's a guy walking around wielding unusual power that needs further investigation, you would accompany this guy to a hospital?

If he claims to heal the sick, that is a logical destination n'est-ce pas? Makes no sense to drive someone who claims to be able to heal to a bunch of healthy people.

 

[MrGoodBytes]

After assuming there's a guy walking around wielding unusual power that needs further investigation, you would accompany this guy to a hospital?

The investigation will be conducted at the hospital. After all, he claimed that he could heal the people there - remember the little dialogue you wrote?

 

[atomweaver]

After assuming there's a guy walking around wielding unusual power that needs further investigation, you would accompany this guy to a hospital?

If I personally saw a girl pop an apple into existence in her hand, and couldn't explain it as mere charlatanry or some other sleight of hand, I'd pay for the gas.

 

[Tomk80]

The investigation will be conducted at the hospital. After all, he claimed that he could heal the people there - remember the little dialogue you wrote?

I know it took me long enough, but it slowly begins to dawn on me that one of the central problems creationists like AV and Juvenissun have a startling inability to follow their own arguments to their logical conclusions.