Absolutely Free or Not?

holdon · Oct 18, 2005

JustinWindsor said:
The entire body of Scripture characterizes what is JUST in the eyes of God. He defines JUST, not us. Scripture does not say that God is fair. "Fairness" is a human concept.

I think "fair" and "just" are the same thing. Now, can God be ever unjust?

JustinWindsor · Oct 18, 2005

holdon said:
I think "fair" and "just" are the same thing. Now, can God be ever unjust?

You proved God right again. You are rationalizing, philosophying.

See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. (Col 2:8)

So you think God, not declaring Himself 'fair' is foolish? You think 'fair' and 'just' is the same? Perhaps to man, but to know what God thinks we must consult Scripture.

holdon · Oct 18, 2005

JustinWindsor said:
You proved God right again. You are rationalizing, philosophying.

See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. (Col 2:8)

So you think God, not declaring Himself 'fair' is foolish? You think 'fair' and 'just' is the same? Perhaps to man, but to know what God thinks we must consult Scripture.

Ok, what does Scripture say? That "fair" is different from "just"? Show me. Show me where Scripture has a different standard for God and man.

JustinWindsor · Oct 18, 2005

holdon said:
Ok, what does Scripture say? That "fair" is different from "just"? Show me. Show me where Scripture has a different standard for God and man.

Of proof is on you, dear sir. You are the one insisting that God must be 'just' and 'fair'. You are the one insisting that 'just' and 'fair' is one and the same. You are the one insisting that God and man have to play by the same rules.

The burden is upon you to prove in Scripture that God says He is 'fair' and that 'fair and 'just' is the same. The burden is upon you to prove that God is subject to the same authority as man.

holdon · Oct 18, 2005

JustinWindsor said:
Of proof is on you, dear sir. You are the one insisting that God must be 'just' and 'fair'. You are the one insisting that 'just' and 'fair' is one and the same. You are the one insisting that God and man have to play by the same rules.

The burden is upon you to prove in Scripture that God says He is 'fair' and that 'fair and 'just' is the same. The burden is upon you to prove that God is subject to the same authority as man.

You're confounding subjection to character. Can God lie? No. Who told Him that He could not lie?

Please prove that God can do injustice, that He is not bound by anything and can do injustice...

JustinWindsor · Oct 18, 2005

In Romans chapter nine Paul explains God's election. He uses the example of the twins, not yet born, and specifically mentions that God made His sovereign choice before they had the opportunity to do anything good or bad in order to demonstrate God's sovereign choice. Remember, in this passage, Paul is speaking about the nature of Salvation. Paul also anticipates man's argument. God is not just.

10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or badin order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who callsshe was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

God is just because God is God, and God declares that He is just. God never said he would be fair in man's estimation. He has, however, declared Himself to be just and righteous.

God's justice demands that every man, woman and child be condemned. None are without sin. None are deserving of anything but the judgment and righteous wrath of God. (Rom 1 and 2)

It is only by God's mercy and grace that any are saved from His wrath. It is only God who can save anyone from His condemnation. Christ's work at the cross by His shed blood alone atones for the sins of His children. He redeems His children from the penalty of their sin by the price He paid. Because He has chosen them, (Eph1) redeemed them, and sealed them as His own, they are enabled to believe, and through that faith He has given them He credits to their account Christ's own righteousness.

This may not be fair in man's estimation, but it is justice in God's.

Augustine_Was_Calvinist · Oct 18, 2005

The poster making the assertion that God be fair and that justice is equivalent to fairness should support his assertion rather than deflect.

If God is to meet his idea of fairness, then the question I raised yesterday of Jesus healing some and not all would not fit his idea of fairness either.

God is Just to condemn any to hell, and is Merciful to save those He chooses.

Noah was a sinner just like all of us, but he found Grace in the eyes of God.

Where the semi-pelagian gets confused is in their lack of understanding of the depth and seriousness of sin in the eyes of God.

One sin to an infinitely Holy and infinitely Righteous God is infinitely sinful, which is to say that the offense is of an infinite value to an infinitely Holy God. Which is why the one sin of Adam infected all of humanity because all of humanity was seminally present with Adam when he sinned againsted God.

James puts it this way, saying that at whatever point one breaks one of God's laws, then you are guilty of all of God's laws.

If we are guilty of breaking all of God's laws, and our sin is of an infinite value in the eyes of God, then Noah, just like us, would be found, in and of himself, to have no intrinsic righteousness or goodness that would cause God to choose Noah, or us, based on any good thing found in us whatsoever, for there is none, in the eyes of God.

No, Noah found Grace in the eyes of God, for if God executed Justice with Noah, then Noah and his family would have perished just like the rest.

Was it fair that God choose Noah and not the others?

Was God Just in choosing Noah and not others?

The semi-pelagian lets his philosophy guide him and not Scripture, for if Scripture was his giude he wouldn't be so confused about the nature of sin in the eyes of God, and would realize that we all are deserving of nothing short of hell, and have no goodness within us apart from God's Grace and Mercy.

holdon · Oct 18, 2005

JustinWindsor said:
they are enabled to believe, and through that faith He has given them He credits to their account Christ's own righteousness.

It seems you're only getting this from some reformed theology work. I can't find it in the bible:

"enabled to believe"
"faith He has given them"
"credits to their account Christ's own righteousness"

Aren't you following a man-made system?

holdon · Oct 18, 2005

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
God is Just to condemn any to hell, and is Merciful to save those He chooses.

How does He choose, if all are equal and He is not biased? How can He ever come to a choice?

Outrider · Oct 18, 2005

holdon said:
How does He choose, if all are equal and He is not biased? How can He ever come to a choice?

According to the counsel of his own will and by his own pleasure and we can't go there. Ephes. 1:5 (ESV)
he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, Ephes. 1:11 (ESV)
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

JustinWindsor · Oct 18, 2005

holdon said:
You're confounding subjection to character. Can God lie? No. Who told Him that He could not lie?

Please prove that God can do injustice, that He is not bound by anything and can do injustice...

I know God cannot lie because He has revealed that to us in Scripture.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Titus 1:2[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,[/font]

God is just. He is not unjust.

Deut 32:4
"The Rock! His work is perfect,
For all His ways are just;
A God of faithfulness and without injustice,
Righteous and upright is He.

also Romans 9:14
What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

God justifies. (Rom 8:33)
Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

I know that God holds all authority and is bound by and to no authority but His own. He answers to no one. He is not bound by anyone else's sense of justice. Least of all His creature's.

Ephesians 1 (Emphasis mine)

18I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Once again, God has said He is just. He never said He is fair in our eyes.

Outrider · Oct 18, 2005

holdon said:
It seems you're only getting this from some reformed theology work. I can't find it in the bible:

"enabled to believe"
"faith He has given them"
"credits to their account Christ's own righteousness"

Aren't you following a man-made system?

God's enabling grace:
Romans 15:13 (ESV)
May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. Romans 5:2-6 (ESV)
Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. [3] More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, [4] and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, [5] and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
[6] For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

The imputation of Christ's righteousness: Romans 5:18 (ESV)
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

A doctrine of God or of men, you be the judge. But judge carefully.

Outrider · Oct 18, 2005

Forgot one.

Saving and sanctifying faith is given by God and is not intrinsic to sinful men:

Faith is bequeathed by God to Abraham as the representative head of the household of faith and to his offspring through divine covenant:
Romans 4:13 (ESV)
For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

By the same token, faith, which is a righteousness cannot originate in man because man is not righteous:
Romans 3:10 (ESV)
as it is written:
"None is righteous, no, not one;
Isaiah 64:6 (ESV)
We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Faith is a gift from God:

Ephes. 2:8-10 (ESV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

The Christian is a creation of God and just as God breathed into Adam and he became living, so Christ breathes into us and we begin to believe.

jmacvols · Oct 18, 2005

nobdysfool said:
No, they cannot be lost, if they're Elect, because Election is unto salvation, and that salvation is sure. If God cannot ensure that His Elect do, in fact, come to salvation (because He is the One who brings them there), then God is not Omnipotent. Certainly you don't believe that God cannot fail to bring to pass what He chooses?

Back in post # 69 you said 'election' is not salvation. Now you say if one is 'elect' they cannot be lost. So if one is part of the 'elect' he cannot be lost no matter what, hence election would be salvation. Now the question is; where does the bible say God will force the 'elect' to be obedient? Will God force the "elect" to be baptized, Mk 16:16?

nobdysfool said:
Where does scripture say that you can make yourself righteous? If you can't, then neither could Noah. No man can make himself righteous, or he would not need a Savior. If Noah pleased God by his obedience, it was because God enabled Noah to do so. Election to salvation is God's to give. not man's to demand, or to criticize.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not nobdysfool, that whom ye yield yourself servant to obey, his servant ye are to to whom ye obey, whether sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness." Obedience to God is what makes one righteous. Heb 11:8 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not yet seen, MOVED (OBEYED) with fear, PREPARED (WORKS) an ark to the saving of his house...and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Noah's obedient faith caused him to prepare an ark and become an heir of righteousness. Noah did not have "faith alone", for "faith alone" would not have moved him to prepare the ark and he then would not have been a heir of righteousness. James 2:23 Abraham believed the Lord and it was counted unto him for righteouness. Notice Abraham did not "believe alone", he had obedient faith, Heb 11:8, he obeyed.

1 John 2:29, are you born of God nobdysfool? do you "doeth righteousness"?

1 Jn 3:7 he that doeth righteousness is righteous. 1 Jn 3:10 he that doeth not righteousness is not of God.

2 Tim 3:16 God gave us instruction on how to be righteous. God tells us what to do to be obedient to His will.

Rom 6:13 do you use your members as instruments of righteousness?

Rom 6:17,18 they were servants of sin but had OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine and being made free from sin, became servants of righteousness. Their obedience made them free from sin and servants of righteousness.

More?

nobdysfool said:
You have a very anthropomorphic view of God. You imagine Him to be just a bigger version of our own selves, complete with all the emotional turmoil and heartache we suffer. Nothing could be further from the Truth!

I have said God is a fair and just God, not a coin flipper.

nobdysfool said:
Evidence that you have bwen taught by the Holy Spirit rests in being able to properly expound the scriptures, and rightly divide the Word of Truth. You are doing neither.

Demands for "proof" from those who will not be taught is an empty demand, and an avoidance mechanism to avoid dealing with the clear lack of knowledge displayed.

The old "I'm right, your wrong" is not proof you have been "taught" by the Holy Spirit. The proof would lie in the fact your not properly expounding the scriptures.

jmacvols · Oct 18, 2005

JustinWindsor said:
You, apparently, are having a problem with the wisdom of God. "It is not fair!" is the cry of natural man who spends his whole life trying to save himself, blame God for his failures, and trying to invent his own god and his own salvation. Yet the truth is clear in God's Scripture. Hear the apostle Paul speaking to this very conundrum of man in 1 Cor;

18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised thingsand the things that are notto nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from Godthat is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

So you say God does not have to be fair and just?

JustinWindsor said:
I was chosen before the world, as we know it, began. I was nothing, I was foolish, I was spiritually dead, I was utterly lost in sin. Then, upon receiving the word of God, the message of the Gospel which is contained and conveyed in Scripture, I was born again, from above.

May God add His blessing upon you as well.

What objective proof can you provide that you are part of the "elect"?

JustinWindsor · Oct 18, 2005

holdon said:
It seems you're only getting this from some reformed theology work. I can't find it in the bible:

"enabled to believe"
"faith He has given them"
"credits to their account Christ's own righteousness"

Aren't you following a man-made system?

I found it in the Scriptures.

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Regarding the faith He has given them...

Acts 15:9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Romans 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Christ's righteousness credited;

Romans 4:3-5,13 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Phil 3:8,9 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christthe righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.

1 Cor 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

2 Cor 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

James 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "A[size=-2]ND[/size] A[size=-2]BRAHAM BELIEVED[/size] G[size=-2]OD[/size], [size=-2]AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS[/size]," and he was called the friend of God.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Hope this helps.

Outrider · Oct 18, 2005

Tongue in cheek (somewhat):

I have said God is a fair and just God, not a coin flipper.

Interesting that God allowed Israel to determine his will by the throw of dice (Urrim and Thummim) and that the Apostles determined the repalcement of Judas by the drawing of lots. God could indeed choose by the toss of a coin, he controls the coin.

JustinWindsor · Oct 18, 2005

jmacvols said:
So you say God does not have to be fair and just?...

QUOTE]

What I said was...
God does not say in Scripture that He is fair. God does say in Scripture that He is Just. It was someone else's idea that fair and just are one and the same.

Outrider · Oct 18, 2005

JustinWindsor said:
jmacvols said:

So you say God does not have to be fair and just?...

QUOTE]

What I said was...
God does not say in Scripture that He is fair. God does say in Scripture that He is Just. It was someone else's idea that fair and just are one and the same.

Click to expand...

"Fair" as a judicatory term is never used in Scripture. Meaning, "beautiful" as in "Tamar was fair" is used. I suppose in that since, it could be said that God is fair, or beautiful.

jmacvols · Oct 18, 2005

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
No, Mark 16:16 is not related to the ordo salutis, but are commands to believe and be baptized, just as the command to repent.

It absolutely is, the order Jesus put them was belief first, followed by baptism, both followed by salvation. Re-arranging that order is perverting Christ's words.

AugustineWas_Calvinist said:
Unless the Spirit first transform the "natural man" into the "spiritual man" as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2, he cannot understand the Gospel and "things of God", but indeed finds them to be utter foolishness.

No doubt, there are many, many people on this forum and other religious forums who all believe they have been "taught" by the Holy Spirit, the problem is they disagree with each other--vehemently, and if it wasn't so sad it would be funny. Or do you have me believe that the Holy Spirit is spreading this confusion and conflict?

Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
1 Corinthians 2;
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which mans wisdom teaches but which the Holy[d] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

A man cannot believe what he does not know and finds to be foolishness.

1 Cor 2:10-13 God revealed unto us (apostles) by His Spirit.
The only way one can understand God is by revelation through the Holy Spirit. The apostles were inspired by the Holy Spirit and hence were able to understand those things of God. The apostles wrote those things down so mere men, that are uninspired, can understand them also. In Eph 3:4 Paul tells the Ephesians, when ye read ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ. Eph 5:17--Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

Absolutely Free or Not?

Eternal life: Free or costly?

Absolutely Free: No provisos, caveats, strings attached. Grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Costly: One must commit, surrender, die to self, be obedient, and persevere till the end.

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