Absolute Proof God Exists

[Hall]

I used to try to understand things deeply like that, but there is no use really, the mandella effect, matrix, paralell universes etc whether real or not is better to try to not understand, its a downward spiral for the health of our spirit. Focus on God and what His word says, that is the most important thing.

 

[xianghua]

The universe is time based showing progression from one moment to the next it allows us to see that the universe does in fact have a starting point.. and with this starting point it shows is that the universe could not be responsible for itself... for it would not be able to initiate its own beginning nor would it be able to create itself.

If time didn't exist then our physical world could not exist either seeing that time appears to be the measure of progression of physical objects.. time allows movement.. change.. progression etc for a physical world.. without time a physical world would have no progression and be stuck at 1 single moment..

God " The Intelligent Force that everything extends from" exists in Eternity.. outside of time.. This explains why hes sees our existence all at once.. knowing the beginning and the ending .. because we live linear in the physical world while "He" sees the entire beginning and end all at once. Picture a ruler.. we live from inch to inch starting at 0.. while God sees the entire ruler all at once.

Infinity does not exist in the physical.. we are progressing now which is evidence of a initial starting point.. because without an initial starting point in time.. there is no reference for each moment following..

This is a lot to grasp and it definitely leads further... but just wanted to start here with a basic interpretation of how I view Creation.. and the reason why.. feel free to share thoughts hopefully this sparks some interesting discussion..

my favorite argument for god existence is this one:

the self replicating watch argument

 

[MrAnderson9]

my favorite argument for god existence is this one:

the self replicating watch argument

Very interesting.

 

[TLK Valentine]

The universe is time based showing progression from one moment to the next it allows us to see that the universe does in fact have a starting point.. and with this starting point it shows is that the universe could not be responsible for itself... for it would not be able to initiate its own beginning nor would it be able to create itself.

If time didn't exist then our physical world could not exist either seeing that time appears to be the measure of progression of physical objects.. time allows movement.. change.. progression etc for a physical world.. without time a physical world would have no progression and be stuck at 1 single moment..

God " The Intelligent Force that everything extends from" exists in Eternity.. outside of time.. This explains why hes sees our existence all at once.. knowing the beginning and the ending .. because we live linear in the physical world while "He" sees the entire beginning and end all at once. Picture a ruler.. we live from inch to inch starting at 0.. while God sees the entire ruler all at once.

Infinity does not exist in the physical.. we are progressing now which is evidence of a initial starting point.. because without an initial starting point in time.. there is no reference for each moment following..

This is a lot to grasp and it definitely leads further... but just wanted to start here with a basic interpretation of how I view Creation.. and the reason why.. feel free to share thoughts hopefully this sparks some interesting discussion..

If this is absolute proof, you've just rendered faith obsolete.

This theological discovery may very well usher in an entirely new era of Christianity. Perhaps a new Gospel is in order?

 

[HiEv]

The universe is time based showing progression from one moment to the next it allows us to see that the universe does in fact have a starting point..

The fact that time progresses doesn't mean that it has a starting point. It could be infinite.

Even if this universe isn't infinite, that doesn't mean that it couldn't exist within an infinite multiverse.

If time didn't exist then our physical world could not exist either seeing that time appears to be the measure of progression of physical objects.. time allows movement.. change.. progression etc for a physical world.. without time a physical world would have no progression and be stuck at 1 single moment..

However, if our universe is but one within an endless multiverse with it's own time, then that multiverse could create our universe.

Or, maybe our universe did create itself using time travelers.

God " The Intelligent Force that everything extends from" exists in Eternity.. outside of time..

Citation needed.

You can't just jump from "a cause is necessary" to "therefore that cause has to be a single intelligent being, and it happens to be my God." Perhaps the universe was the natural product of unintelligent colliding branes within a multiverse. Or maybe we're all in a computer simulation created by many beings similar to ourselves.

There are lots of possible explanations, but regardless, I don't see any objective evidence that can only/best be explained by the existence of deities, so until I do I'm disinclined to believe that they exist.

 

[quatona]

I define "God" as the "Creative Force that everything extends from" . I see a God that Created life forms.

I have absolutely no idea what you might mean by: "creating" in the absence of time.

 

[Tayla]

God " The Intelligent Force that everything extends from" exists in Eternity.. outside of time.. This explains why hes sees our existence all at once.. knowing the beginning and the ending .. because we live linear in the physical world while "He" sees the entire beginning and end all at once. Picture a ruler.. we live from inch to inch starting at 0.. while God sees the entire ruler all at once.

This analogy of God outside of time, one dimension higher, looking down on the time ruler, doesn't ring true to me. I would prefer something like God creating each instant of the universe frame by frame as he polls the results of the previous instant. God creates both the entire universe and the time it resides in at the same instant.

 

[Tayla]

Infinity does not exist in the physical

Yes, correct. The physical material universe is distinct from the spiritual realm. The physical material universe is inert and living only in the chemical biological sense. The spiritual realm contains everything else: ideas, symbols, mathematics, emotion, love, souls, everything. God is beyond the spiritual realm just as he is beyond time and space.

Infinity exists in the spiritual realm; time flows smoothy and continuously in the spiritual realm.

Time and space are jerky and quantized in the physical material universe. There is no motion at all, rather, the entire universe is created ex nihilo out if nothing each instant, then dissolves into nothingness. The soul in the spiritual realm persists across the gap and interprets it as flowing continuously like a motion picture.

The soul interacts with the body in two ways:

• Body to soul: senses, processing by brain, brain registers quantum mechanical states, which the soul reads.
• Soul to body: soul decides what action to take via the will, sends communication to the brain via quantum mechanical states, which triggers brain activity leading to motion via the nervous system and muscles.

 

[ViaCrucis]

This sounds like Anselm's "Prime Mover" (First Uncaused Cause) argument.

There are the obvious responses like: "Why is God outside space and time?" It doesn't answer any questions (let along prove anything) other than to propose that there is something that doesn't follow the same rules you have laid down for the rest of the universe. Special pleading.

I'm not familiar with Anselm's relationship to the prime mover argument; the argument I'm most familiar with is his ontological argument: "God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Obliquinaut]

I'm not familiar with Anselm's relationship to the prime mover argument; the argument I'm most familiar with is his ontological argument: "God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived".

-CryptoLutheran

My mistake, I meant Aquinas. I always get those guys confused.

 

[ViaCrucis]

My mistake, I meant Aquinas. I always get those guys confused.

That makes sense. Aquinas the Aristotelian sort he was would have probably been into that sort of thing. Also, easy mistake to make given their relative proximity to one another in time and roles in medieval western scholasticism. I only really understand Anselm's argument here because I had to write a paper about it once when taking a course in philosophy at my local community college.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[DogmaHunter]

The universe is time based showing progression from one moment to the next it allows us to see that the universe does in fact have a starting point.. and with this starting point it shows is that the universe could not be responsible for itself... for it would not be able to initiate its own beginning nor would it be able to create itself.

So far, so good.
I'm still with you here. Perhaps I might use different terminology left and right, but in the big picture: sure.

If time didn't exist then our physical world could not exist either seeing that time appears to be the measure of progression of physical objects.. time allows movement.. change.. progression etc for a physical world.. without time a physical world would have no progression and be stuck at 1 single moment..

And space. Don't forget space.

God " The Intelligent Force that everything extends from" exists in Eternity..

How do you know?

outside of time..

What does that mean? "To exist" seems a state that is subject to time, by the way. But I'll go ahead and write it of on the limitations of language, for the sake of argument.

This explains why hes sees our existence all at once.. knowing the beginning and the ending .. because we live linear in the physical world while "He" sees the entire beginning and end all at once. Picture a ruler.. we live from inch to inch starting at 0.. while God sees the entire ruler all at once.

"sees". "To See". Again, that is a temporal concept.

But more importantly, you're just making assertions again. Your thread title says you would present "absolute proof" of god. But up until now, the only thing you seem to be doing is simply assuming your conclusion...

Infinity does not exist in the physical.. we are progressing now which is evidence of a initial starting point.. because without an initial starting point in time.. there is no reference for each moment following..

For all we know, no physical infinities exists.
However, in theory and concept, I'ld disagree with you. If you have a progression through an infinite amount of events, you'ld still have a progression. Events would still take place.
There is no reason why our current "moment" in time, couldn't be one of those moments that an infinite progression "moves through".

This is a lot to grasp and it definitely leads further... but just wanted to start here with a basic interpretation of how I view Creation.. and the reason why.. feel free to share thoughts hopefully this sparks some interesting discussion..

It seems to me that you are just trying to cover up our collective ignorance on the origins and true nature of the universe, by positing the god you already happen to believe as an assumed conclusion. And then you're calling it "absolute proof".

Unfortunatly, that's not how logic works.

 

[DogmaHunter]

This sounds like Anselm's "Prime Mover" (First Uncaused Cause) argument.

There are the obvious responses like: "Why is God outside space and time?" It doesn't answer any questions (let along prove anything) other than to propose that there is something that doesn't follow the same rules you have laid down for the rest of the universe. Special pleading.

That too.

There are so many problems with this line of "reasoning"... it reads like a textbook on logical fallacies. Special pleading being just one of them. Then there are also things like argument from ignorance / incredulity (we don't know / understand, therefor god-dun-it), assumed concludion (it's an argument supposedly to "prove" god, but it posits god existing as an assumption / premise), etc.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I don't see a logical means for a physical world subject to time to exist without a realm that isn't subject to time..

The universe isn't SUBJECT to time.
Time, rather, is an integral part of the universe (aka, the space-time continuum) - which is not the same thing.

Eternity.. and with us being here and alive.. I think that is proof that "something" didn't require a beginning..

Perhaps, perhaps not. Unlike you, I'm not going to pretend as if a human "common sense" approach to such vastly alien and complex issues is going to have any merrit.

Because more then likely, whatever the answer is, it is not going to play along nicely with what "common sense" would dictate. Just like most other fundamental discoveries concerning weirdo physics, it is likely going to be utterly counter-intuitive.

Your claims concerning this creating god, clearly is just an attempt to marry these complex problems with your human intuition / common sense.

History learns us that such approaches more often then not, simply lead to very very wrong answers.

because that would put us in an endless loop of who created who..

There you go again, assuming a "who". What's wrong with a "what"? How have you determined that a "who" is at all required?

so something obviously required no creation..

Why, again?

and with this world being subject to time..

Nope. As said, the universe isn't "subject" to time. Time rather is a property of the universe. This particular universe, to be exact.

Remove the universe = remove time.

and progression I'm inclined to believe that our universe exists inside of eternity.

And you can believe whatever you like.

But your thread title isn't "absolute BELIEF god exists".
It is "absolute PROOF god exists".

 

[DogmaHunter]

1. We are able to progress at different points in time.. and this progression can be calculated equally for all objects in existence.. meaning that at some point there was a reference from which to make each addition point.

Every "moment in time", is such a point.

meaning that in order for point C to exist.. there has to be point A.. the intial point to serve as the reference.. each point in existence.. is distinguished from other points via it's relation to the initial point. You can't progress. without having a point to progress from..

Except if you are god, I bet.

ps: how does this god "progress", or "do" anything at all, in a timeless/atemporal context?

Following your very own reasoning... no time = no sequence of events = no temporal actions are taking place.

"To produce"
"To create"
"To observe"
"To see"
...

All these things require a flow of time to take place.

You may begin your special pleading.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I believe we are in a form of the "Matrix". Everything is subject to the "Creative Force".. there is nothing that guarantees that gravity .. electricity.. physics etc.. will function the it has historically tomorrow.. that's completely up to the "Creator".

Really?

So... when you step on an airplane, do you then pray for electro-magnetism, gravity, etc to continue to function properly out of fear of meeting certain death?

Or do you rather just say this to make your fallacious argument sound more reasonable, while not actually believing that gravity might suddenly stop working tomorrow?

 

[Larniavc]

The universe is time based showing progression from one moment to the next it allows us to see that the universe does in fact have a starting point.. and with this starting point it shows is that the universe could not be responsible for itself... for it would not be able to initiate its own beginning nor would it be able to create itself.

If time didn't exist then our physical world could not exist either seeing that time appears to be the measure of progression of physical objects.. time allows movement.. change.. progression etc for a physical world.. without time a physical world would have no progression and be stuck at 1 single moment..

God " The Intelligent Force that everything extends from" exists in Eternity.. outside of time.. This explains why hes sees our existence all at once.. knowing the beginning and the ending .. because we live linear in the physical world while "He" sees the entire beginning and end all at once. Picture a ruler.. we live from inch to inch starting at 0.. while God sees the entire ruler all at once.

Infinity does not exist in the physical.. we are progressing now which is evidence of a initial starting point.. because without an initial starting point in time.. there is no reference for each moment following..

This is a lot to grasp and it definitely leads further... but just wanted to start here with a basic interpretation of how I view Creation.. and the reason why.. feel free to share thoughts hopefully this sparks some interesting discussion..

That's not absolute proof of God's existence.

 

[MrAnderson9]

The fact that time progresses doesn't mean that it has a starting point. It could be infinite.

Even if this universe isn't infinite, that doesn't mean that it couldn't exist within an infinite multiverse.



However, if our universe is but one within an endless multiverse with it's own time, then that multiverse could create our universe.

Or, maybe our universe did create itself using time travelers.



Citation needed.

You can't just jump from "a cause is necessary" to "therefore that cause has to be a single intelligent being, and it happens to be my God." Perhaps the universe was the natural product of unintelligent colliding branes within a multiverse. Or maybe we're all in a computer simulation created by many beings similar to ourselves.

There are lots of possible explanations, but regardless, I don't see any objective evidence that can only/best be explained by the existence of deities, so until I do I'm disinclined to believe that they exist.

Infinite time doesn't exist. That implies that one moment in time is equal to every other moment in time. For instance if infinite exist.. then how do pinpoint a particular moment?

Example.. 3 exist.. because 0.. 1... and 2 exist. Each having its proper location. In an infinite system there is no reference point for the next moment because every moment exists simultaneously together. Basically frozen. No progression. no movement.

 

[MrAnderson9]

Really?

So... when you step on an airplane, do you then pray for electro-magnetism, gravity, etc to continue to function properly out of fear of meeting certain death?

Or do you rather just say this to make your fallacious argument sound more reasonable, while not actually believing that gravity might suddenly stop working tomorrow?

Because I don't pray for every principle that is in place to remain in place doesn't mean that I don't respect the fact that there is nothing that says it has to.. other than the Creator and monitor of these principles.

The fact that this all remains in tact is further proof in my opinion of the existence of "God".

 

[MrAnderson9]

The universe isn't SUBJECT to time.
Time, rather, is an integral part of the universe (aka, the space-time continuum) - which is not the same thing.




Perhaps, perhaps not. Unlike you, I'm not going to pretend as if a human "common sense" approach to such vastly alien and complex issues is going to have any merrit.

Because more then likely, whatever the answer is, it is not going to play along nicely with what "common sense" would dictate. Just like most other fundamental discoveries concerning weirdo physics, it is likely going to be utterly counter-intuitive.

Your claims concerning this creating god, clearly is just an attempt to marry these complex problems with your human intuition / common sense.

History learns us that such approaches more often then not, simply lead to very very wrong answers.



There you go again, assuming a "who". What's wrong with a "what"? How have you determined that a "who" is at all required?



Why, again?



Nope. As said, the universe isn't "subject" to time. Time rather is a property of the universe. This particular universe, to be exact.

Remove the universe = remove time.



And you can believe whatever you like.

But your thread title isn't "absolute BELIEF god exists".
It is "absolute PROOF god exists".

Depends on what you consider the "universe" The physical realm is absolutely subject to time. Time represents movement and progression. Time is a plot in existence that ties certain states to certain points … in order for there to be points that aren't the same as each other, there has to be time. otherwise nothing would move. .. life would not be possible. growth.. chemical change.. etc.