Absolute Predestination

[JM]

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8)

Amen and amen.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Thanks for this Dave, I have been looking at predestination and election a lot the last couple of days and this is affirmation that I need to study this more to grasp this understanding fully.
I believe you to be correct.

Everything that happens will be due to either God determined it to occur, or that God allowed it to happen, as nothing is left to "chance"

 

[1stcenturylady]

Paul would disagree. The body is not sinful but tainted, it needs to be restored, not destroyed.

Philippians 3.21 "He will transform the body of our humble condition into the likeness of his glorious body, by the power that enables him to subject everything to himself."

The battle is real. Paul noted that when he was battling the sinful desires inherited from Adam there was a "law" of sin in his members.

Romans 7.21 "So I discover this law: evil is present with me."

This side of glory we will be at constant war with the flesh.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Paul taught exactly what I said - We are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. You taking Romans 7 about mankind under the law BEFORE Christ, and trying to superimpose it onto the life of a Christian is taking it out of context. Bad exegesis.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Amen and amen.

You must be Calvinist...

 

[JM]

Paul taught exactly what I said - We are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. You taking Romans 7 about mankind under the law BEFORE Christ, and trying to superimpose it onto the life of a Christian is taking it out of context. Bad exegesis.

Actually, Paul was a Christian when Romans 7 was written. Bad exegesis.

You must be an Arminian, Pelagian or Roman Catholic.

 

[JM]

That's the best you can do.

You must be Calvinist...

 

[1stcenturylady]

Actually, Paul was a Christian when Romans 7 was written. Bad exegesis.

You must be an Arminian, Pelagian or Roman Catholic.

Are you saying that Paul was alive at the time of Moses? Bad exegesis, indeed! Romans 7:9

The use of first person is merely a Hebrew Semitic writing style. Study to show yourself approved!

 

[Dave L]

The Spirit doesn't "battle" the flesh, He KILLS it! We are DEAD to sin. We are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit. One or the other - not both!

Look, Dave. You are not in so deep into Calvinism that you can't get out, so get out now! It is weak. It is false. It is dead. Jesus said of it, “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." Revelation 3:1 (Sardis, the age of the Reformation)

Do you have any remaining sin? If you do not, sell all you have and give to the needy, that is, if you love them as yourself. This is basically what Jesus told the rich young ruler about perfectly keeping the law = not sinning.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Do you have any remaining sin? If you do not, sell all you have and give to the needy, that is, if you love them as yourself. This is basically what Jesus told the rich young ruler about perfectly keeping the law = not sinning.

Oh, I have, indeed. And am broke. But God still provides.

If you want to live in weakness, that is up to you. I've shown you what the apostles actually say, now if you want to believe those who twist it to fit their own lack of character, then have at it.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

1 Corinthians 14:38

I'm done. I've shown you.

 

[Dave L]

Oh, I have, indeed. And am broke. But God still provides.

If you want to live in weakness, that is up to you. I've shown you what the apostles actually say, now if you want to believe those who twist it to fit their own lack of character, then have at it.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

1 Corinthians 14:38

I'm done. I've shown you.

I don't think you recognize sin and lower the bar for yourself.

 

[JM]

Are you saying that Paul was alive at the time of Moses? Bab exegesis, indeed! Romans 7:9

The use of first person is merely a Hebrew Semitic writing style. Study to show yourself approved!

I'm not sure what a Bab exegesis is but if that's what you're doing it's all wrong. Paul is clearly saying we struggle with the flesh.

 

[JM]

I'm done. I've shown you.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I'm not sure what a Bab exegesis is but if that's what you're doing it's all wrong. Paul is clearly saying we struggle with the flesh.

Thank you. I've corrected the typo. Oh, that it were that easy for you to correct your exegesis!

 

[1stcenturylady]

I don't think you recognize sin and lower the bar for yourself.

No, I happen to know what type of sin the apostles are talking about. Willful sin. You see I study. Not sins called trespasses that even a Spirit-filled Christian commits which are cleansed automatically as we walk in the Spirit and forgive others their trespasses against us. 1 John 1:7 What Luther stated were willful sins of murder and adultery cannot separate us from God - a heresy. A Christian cannot commit sins of lawlessness 1 John 3:4, and 9. Luther says the opposite of the apostle.

1 John 1:6 is not a Christian.
1 John 1:7 is a Christian.
1 John 1:8 is not a Christian
1 John 1:9 is how to become a Christian
1 John 1:10 is not a Christian.

Notice a pattern? Starting with verse 5 which says God is light, every other verse is a contrast between light and darkness. It is one of the Hebrew Semitic writing styles. Start studying and learn what the apostles MEAN.

Lord Byron, romantic poet of the early 1800’s, walked into a pub and sat down at a table by the fire. Sitting at the table next to him he overheard the heated conversation of two gentlemen discussing the meaning of a poem – one written by the poet himself. He listened with amusement as they debated over the meaning of the poem, both completely missing the point. Finally, he chimed in with the true meaning of the poem, introducing himself as the author. Even so they stood their ground preferring their own interpretations, and both argued with Lord Byron over the meaning of the poem.

 

[Dave L]

No, I happen to know what type of sin the apostles are talking about. Willful sin. You see I study. Not sins called trespasses that even a Spirit-filled Christian commits which are cleansed automatically as we walk in the Spirit and forgive others their trespasses against us. 1 John 1:7 What Luther stated were willful sins of murder and adultery cannot separate us from God - a heresy. A Christian cannot commit sins of lawlessness 1 John 3:4, and 9. Luther says the opposite of the apostle.

1 John 1:6 is not a Christian.
1 John 1:7 is a Christian.
1 John 1:8 is not a Christian
1 John 1:9 is how to become a Christian
1 John 1:10 is not a Christian.

Notice a pattern? Starting with verse 5 which says God is light, every other verse is a contrast between light and darkness. It is one of the Hebrew Semitic writing styles. Start studying and learn what the apostles MEAN.

Lord Byron, romantic poet of the early 1800’s, walked into a pub and sat down at a table by the fire. Sitting at the table next to him he overheard the heated conversation of two gentlemen discussing the meaning of a poem – one written by the poet himself. He listened with amusement as they debated over the meaning of the poem, both completely missing the point. Finally, he chimed in with the true meaning of the poem, introducing himself as the author. Even so they stood their ground preferring their own interpretations, and both argued with Lord Byron over the meaning of the poem.

But your flesh won't be renewed until the resurrection.

“But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.” (James 1:14–15)
Lust is not in the Spirit, it is in the flesh and remains temptation and not sin unless we give in to it.

 

[JM]

1 John 1.1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life

The "we" is inclusive and refers to believers.

2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us

The "we" are believers for obvious reasons.

3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.

The "we" are believers.

5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

Declaration of Christ's holiness and truth.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;

Verse 6 is placing emphasis on darkness being untruth. It's the opposite of the Light given us in Christ.

7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

We can only have fellowship if we gather and live according to the truth of Christ.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Now all of a sudden, according the Bab exegesis above, the "we" are unbelievers?

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We live a life of confession and faith, repentance from sin and renewed life in Christ. Continually.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

No one is perfect and believers, especially believers, know this truth. It's known in the word of God and experimentally know.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[YeshuaFan]

Actually, Paul was a Christian when Romans 7 was written. Bad exegesis.

You must be an Arminian, Pelagian or Roman Catholic.

I am a calvinist, and Paul was telling us in Romans Chapter 7 how we can be saved now, and want to serve God, and yet still fall into sinning, but Chapter 8 gives to us the victory, as we must submit to the Holy Spirit for victory on a continual basis!

 

[YeshuaFan]

You must be Calvinist...

The best thing to be!

 

[truefiction1]

Adam's imperfect nature, because he is a creature, allowed him to be tempted and sin.

After the fall man cannot choose freely, sin has impact him through Adam and the so called freewill of the creature is constrained.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (Joh 3:5-7)

Christ explains “that which is born of flesh is flesh.” The flesh can do nothing spiritual.

All humanity was in Adam covenantally.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Rom 5:12)

Notice that “by nature,” that is in our nature (“flesh is flesh”) state we were “children of wrath.” We were in a sinful state and fulfilled our own “desires of the flesh.”

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Eph 2:1-3)

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (Col 2:13)

God does the “quickening” or makes us alive, the actions of God are not subject to the creature, for He is all knowing and all powerful.

All of this was in God's plan from eternity.

GOD PREDETERMINED THE FALL OF ADAM; this fell under his decree, as all things do that come to pass in the world; there is nothing comes to pass without his determining will, “Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?” (Lam. 3:37), nothing is done, or can be done, God not willing it should be done: that the fall of Adam was by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God is certain; because the sufferings and death of Christ, by which is the redemption of men from that sin, and all others, were ordained before the foundation of the world; and which must have been precarious and uncertain, if Adam’s fall was not by a like decree (Acts 2:23; 4:28; 1 Pet. 1:20), but then neither the foreknowledge of God, nor any decree of God, laid Adam under a necessity of sinning; it is true, there arises from hence a necessity of immutability, that is, that the things God has decreed should unchangeably come to pass, but not a necessity of co-action or force; as Judas and the Jews sinned freely, the one in betraying, the other in putting Christ to death; so Adam sinned freely, without force or compulsion, notwithstanding any decree of God concerning him; so that these do not make God at all chargeable with being the author of his sin; he and he alone was the author of it. - John Gill

Yours in the Lord,

jm

But Adam had freewill, before his fall, right? This is, after all, the answer I was expecting you to answer with when I asked "by what means did Adam choose to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and succeed in eating it". The means by which Adam fell then, is Adam's freewill, which God created him with. Right?

 

[YeshuaFan]

But Adam had freewill, before his fall, right?

Yes, but none save Jesus Himself have had that since!