• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Absolute Predestination

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Site Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,190
4,185
78
Tennessee
✟476,152.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Another way to look at it, if you are not tempted and battle sin, you are not born again. If you are born again, you will win each battle.

I don't agree, it doesn't make sense. How can you NOT be tempted and still battle sin, when sin STARTS with temptation?

James 1:14-15
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

This is why it is more important to teach what to do when tempted, BEFORE it gets to sin. That is what the Holy Spirit does - empowers us when temptations come our way by taking the desire away altogether so that you are NOT tempted, or at least have power to resist what's left, and after you have resisted for a long time, it is second nature to resist.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,879
USA
✟580,230.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't agree, it doesn't make sense. How can you NOT be tempted and still battle sin, when sin STARTS with temptation?

James 1:14-15
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

This is why it is more important to teach what to do when tempted, BEFORE it gets to sin. That is what the Holy Spirit does - empowers us when temptations come our way by taking the desire away altogether so that you are NOT tempted, or at least have power to resist what's left, and after you have resisted for a long time, it is second nature to resist.
I think we are saying the same thing but not understanding each other. Temptation resides in the flesh. Satan has access to the flesh too. In the New Birth we are a new creation. And we do not sin. But we battle the temptations of the flesh. If we give in it is sin. But we have power in the Holy Spirit not to give in but instead overcome temptation.
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Site Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,190
4,185
78
Tennessee
✟476,152.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
I think we are saying the same thing but not understanding each other. Temptation resides in the flesh. Satan has access to the flesh too. In the New Birth we are a new creation. And we do not sin. But we battle the temptations of the flesh. If we give in it is sin. But we have power in the Holy Spirit not to give in but instead overcome temptation.

Temptation does reside in the flesh of the UNREGENERATE. But we are talking about Christians.

James 1:14-15
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Temptation is based on desires. But with the baptism of the Holy Spirit we do not have the same desires as before, thus, temptations are of no effect. This is why 1 John 3:9 is correct. The seed in us destroys the sin nature, our desires.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,879
USA
✟580,230.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Temptation does reside in the flesh of the UNREGENERATE. But we are talking about Christians.

James 1:14-15
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Temptation is based on desires. But with the baptism of the Holy Spirit we do not have the same desires as before, thus, temptations are of no effect. This is why 1 John 3:9 is correct. The seed in us destroys the sin nature, our desires.
Why would James mention this to Christians if it all went away when we received the Holy Spirit? If anything, the Holy Spirit creates the conflict.
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Site Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,190
4,185
78
Tennessee
✟476,152.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Why would James mention this to Christians if it all went away when we received the Holy Spirit? If anything, the Holy Spirit creates the conflict.


Because to endure to the end and receive salvation, we cannot quench the Spirit. It is only the Spirit that keeps us dead to sin, and, thus, temptations.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,879
USA
✟580,230.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Because to endure to the end and receive salvation, we cannot quench the Spirit. It is only the Spirit that keeps us dead to sin, and, thus, temptations.
We don't give in to temptations, but that does not mean they don't exist.
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Site Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,190
4,185
78
Tennessee
✟476,152.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
We don't give in to temptations, but that does not mean they don't exist.

As an example, when it comes to animal abuse I absolutely cannot be tempted. It is not in my nature. That type of lack of temptation is what the Spirit does to all evil temptations. Now to others, some people love to hunt animals for trophies. But, it is unthinkable to me. We all work out our own salvation.

Some Christians are so unregenerate they think nothing of fornication and having an abortion as birth control. Not me!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dave L
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,879
USA
✟580,230.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As an example, when it comes to animal abuse I absolutely cannot be tempted. It is not in my nature. That type of lack of temptation is what the Spirit does to all evil temptations. Now to others, some people love to hunt animals for trophies. But, it is unthinkable to me. We all work out our own salvation.

Some Christians are so unregenerate they think nothing of fornication and having an abortion as birth control. Not me!
I love animals too. My wife and I are squirrel aficionados.
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Site Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,190
4,185
78
Tennessee
✟476,152.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
I love animals too. My wife and I are squirrel aficionados.

I've been feeding wild raccoons by hand for years, thus my avatar (its a cross between raccoons and Pentecostals). This current batch of newborns haven't let me touch them, but in years past they've been all over me. And when they grow up they bring their young. I've had the same female that started it all living under my shed all these years. This is the first year I can't tell if she has her own young. There are 7-10 babies this year, and their mothers.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Dave L
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Site Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,190
4,185
78
Tennessee
✟476,152.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
We don't give in to temptations, but that does not mean they don't exist.

Getting back to the subject, do you see that we are NOT on the same page regarding the flesh. Your's has a Calvinist ring to it, that we will always battle the flesh. Mine is the opposite.

I believe what Augustine taught, that both Calvin and Luther twisted upside down turning the grace of God into licentiousness. You haven't gone that far, but you do hold some of their doctrine of weakness.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,879
USA
✟580,230.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Getting back to the subject, do you see that we are NOT on the same page regarding the flesh. Your's has a Calvinist ring to it, that we will always battle the flesh. Mine is the opposite.

I believe what Augustine taught, that both Calvin and Luther twisted upside down turning the grace of God into licentiousness. You haven't gone that far, but you do hold some of their doctrine of weakness.
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8)
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Site Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,190
4,185
78
Tennessee
✟476,152.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8)

Yikes! Now, you just haven't been paying attention, otherwise you would know how much I hate people using that scripture out of context showing pure ignorance. Don't you know the reason why John wrote the epistle in the first place? What is the history? Gnosticism. 1 John 4:1-3 Though I should have recognized the signs by what we disagree on regarding Calvinism. Calvinism has many Gnostic reasonings in it about the flesh. Martin Luther even said, "No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day." The Nicolaitans were Gnostics, and God hates the deeds of the Nicolaitans. They believed that because Jesus only came in Spirit, that only sins of the Spirit were even sins. Sins of the flesh were not sins. Thus, they could believe in Jesus, and sin in the flesh all they wanted to, saying "they had no sin." Sound familiar? (1 John 1:8) They raped each others wives regularly to show the power of grace. Jude 1:4 says "turning the grace of God into licentiousness." Paul said, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?"

Your verse goes with the next verse. CONTEXT! Just as Paul says "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" every person alive was born a sinner. "But if we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness." So if He cleansed us of all unrighteousness do we still have any unrighteousness? Of course not. So are we still sinners? Or are we saints?

Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

John 8:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Free from what? (willful) SIN!
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Pneuma3
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,879
USA
✟580,230.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yikes! Now, you just haven't been paying attention, otherwise you would know how much I hate people using that scripture out of context showing pure ignorance. Don't you know the reason why John wrote the epistle in the first place? What is the history? Gnosticism. 1 John 4:1-3 Though I should have recognized the signs by what we disagree on regarding Calvinism. Calvinism has many Gnostic reasonings in it about the flesh. Martin Luther even said, "No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day." The Nicolaitans were Gnostics, and God hates the deeds of the Nicolaitans. They believed that because Jesus only came in Spirit, that only sins of the Spirit were even sins. Sins of the flesh were not sins. Thus, they could believe in Jesus, and sin in the flesh all they wanted to, saying "they had no sin." Sound familiar? (1 John 1:8) They raped each others wives regularly to show the power of grace. Jude 1:4 says "turning the grace of God into licentiousness." Paul said, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?"

Your verse goes with the next verse. CONTEXT! Just as Paul says "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" every person alive was born a sinner. "But if we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness." So if He cleansed us of all unrighteousness do we still have any unrighteousness? Of course not. So are we still sinners? Or are we saints?

Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

John 8:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Free from what? (willful) SIN!
We battle the flesh and try to teach it new tricks. But it is like a broken tool our spirit tries to use for good but constantly needs adjustment.
 
Upvote 0

ICONO'CLAST

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2005
1,902
781
new york
✟93,319.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The denial of the existence of freewill is a philosophical theory with no basis in fact, and no scriptural basis except for the false one produced through unenlightened interpretations of men relying upon their own passion afflicted and fallen minds; minds which have not been adequately sanctified by the Holy Spirit and so can do nothing but produce heresy through merely human conjecture.
You can deny the fall and commit 2nd commandment violat ions all day long, but it will not free bound wills dead in sin
 
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,214
2,557
59
Home
Visit site
✟251,766.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
You can deny the fall and commit 2nd commandment violat ions all day long, but it will not free bound wills dead in sin
Ah, so maybe you can give the answer: When Adam, the "living soul" (living because God's life, or grace, had been "breathed" into him) was in the Paradise of Eden, and not fallen, and not dead in sin, not having committed any sin yet, by what means did he choose to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and to succeed in eating it?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Site Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,190
4,185
78
Tennessee
✟476,152.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
We battle the flesh and try to teach it new tricks. But it is like a broken tool our spirit tries to use for good but constantly needs adjustment.

Romans 8:9 We are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God is indeed within us.

What you are talking about are those without the Spirit. There are many inside the Church like that who Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you."

We must be born again of the Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,879
USA
✟580,230.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Romans 8:9 We are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God is indeed within us.

What you are talking about are those without the Spirit. There are many inside the Church like that who Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you."

We must be born again of the Spirit.
But, the Spirit battles the flesh. And overcomes it.
 
Upvote 0

JM

Confessional Free Catholic
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,477
3,734
Canada
✟877,024.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
Ah, so maybe you can give the answer: When Adam, the "living soul" (living because God's life, or grace, had been "breathed" into him) was in the Paradise of Eden, and not fallen, and not dead in sin, not having committed any sin yet, by what means did he choose to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and to succeed in eating it?

Adam's imperfect nature, because he is a creature, allowed him to be tempted and sin.

After the fall man cannot choose freely, sin has impact him through Adam and the so called freewill of the creature is constrained.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (Joh 3:5-7)

Christ explains “that which is born of flesh is flesh.” The flesh can do nothing spiritual.

All humanity was in Adam covenantally.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Rom 5:12)

Notice that “by nature,” that is in our nature (“flesh is flesh”) state we were “children of wrath.” We were in a sinful state and fulfilled our own “desires of the flesh.”

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Eph 2:1-3)

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (Col 2:13)

God does the “quickening” or makes us alive, the actions of God are not subject to the creature, for He is all knowing and all powerful.

All of this was in God's plan from eternity.

GOD PREDETERMINED THE FALL OF ADAM; this fell under his decree, as all things do that come to pass in the world; there is nothing comes to pass without his determining will, “Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?” (Lam. 3:37), nothing is done, or can be done, God not willing it should be done: that the fall of Adam was by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God is certain; because the sufferings and death of Christ, by which is the redemption of men from that sin, and all others, were ordained before the foundation of the world; and which must have been precarious and uncertain, if Adam’s fall was not by a like decree (Acts 2:23; 4:28; 1 Pet. 1:20), but then neither the foreknowledge of God, nor any decree of God, laid Adam under a necessity of sinning; it is true, there arises from hence a necessity of immutability, that is, that the things God has decreed should unchangeably come to pass, but not a necessity of co-action or force; as Judas and the Jews sinned freely, the one in betraying, the other in putting Christ to death; so Adam sinned freely, without force or compulsion, notwithstanding any decree of God concerning him; so that these do not make God at all chargeable with being the author of his sin; he and he alone was the author of it. - John Gill

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Site Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,190
4,185
78
Tennessee
✟476,152.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
But, the Spirit battles the flesh. And overcomes it.

The Spirit doesn't "battle" the flesh, He KILLS it! We are DEAD to sin. We are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit. One or the other - not both!

Look, Dave. You are not in so deep into Calvinism that you can't get out, so get out now! It is weak. It is false. It is dead. Jesus said of it, “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." Revelation 3:1 (Sardis, the age of the Reformation)
 
  • Winner
Reactions: FineLinen
Upvote 0

JM

Confessional Free Catholic
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,477
3,734
Canada
✟877,024.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
The Spirit doesn't "battle" the flesh, He KILLS it! We are DEAD to sin. We are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit. One or the other - not both!

Paul would disagree. The body is not sinful but tainted, it needs to be restored, not destroyed.

Philippians 3.21 "He will transform the body of our humble condition into the likeness of his glorious body, by the power that enables him to subject everything to himself."

The battle is real. Paul noted that when he was battling the sinful desires inherited from Adam there was a "law" of sin in his members.

Romans 7.21 "So I discover this law: evil is present with me."

This side of glory we will be at constant war with the flesh.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
Upvote 0