Absolute Predestination

truefiction1 · Oct 25, 2018

nonaeroterraqueous said:
Your position throughout this thread has been about what role our will plays in our relationship with God. You seem to think that this runs counter to Calvinism (monergism), but it does not. The human will determines our attitude and behavior toward God, and both sides agree on that.

So, what determines the will? As far as I can tell, you've never proposed an answer to this issue, which is precisely what Calvinism is all about. All of your responses have been geared toward the suggestion that God does not override our will to change our relationship with him, but both sides already agree on that. A person lives according to his will, not in spite of it.

Everything has a cause, though, and you have not presented a cause for the nature of a person's will. Some would say that the human will is a product of circumstance, but is God not sovereign over circumstances? Some seem to think that the human will has no cause but itself, making it an effect with no cause, or an original cause, but isn't God the only original cause in our universe? Some would regard it as a product of random chance, but randomness is not a real thing, other than an expression of a person's inability to comprehend the complex interactions leading to an event.

Something caused a human will to be what it is, because everything has a cause. If God was not involved, then something out of God's control led a man to be what he is, or the man led himself to be what he is, making the man a god beyond the control of God, an effect without a cause, a self-extant being like the I Am (supporting the idolatry of self).

The love of a will free from the sovereignty of God is a love of self.

I suggest that the cause for the nature of a creature's will is not for us to know, and that we can't know or understand that which only God is big enough to understand. However, that the freewill of the creatures that God makes in His image and likeness is most precious to God, because it is the only means by which Divine Love can be expressed, or real, on the part of the creature... well... to know this is a gift of the Holy Spirit, Who grants Love, the greatest gift, and is therefor the teaching of the Church and always has been.

All those who have received this gift of Love know full well the role that freewill plays in it, and they also know of the Love that God has even for so-called reprobates, and how God mourns over them. How do they know this? Because they too are become by grace as God is by nature, and so they know what it is to mourn for all of those lost to the Kingdom of Heaven.

We've nothing to learn from Calvin that was not previously known by every child of the Living God who came before, and who comes after, and we don't care to listen to murders, such as he was. Predestination exists with freewill intact, with nobody but God being big enough to know what determines the nature of a creature's will or whatever reasons lie behind it. Only God knows the end and fate of all his creatures. We are not judges of who are the elect and who are reprobate. Ours is only to baptize all nations, and to teach all that our Lord, Christ, has commanded us. We are to believe and do the will of His Father, Who is our Father. We can't know who are the saints who will persevere to the end and who will not, and so we must, by the help of God's grace, exercise our freewill in the way that will keep us on the narrow path; in faith, hope, and Love, because we don't know when our end will come, and so we must always be ready, as our Lord Himself teaches (Matthew 25:13).

nonaeroterraqueous · Oct 25, 2018

truefiction1 said:
We've nothing to learn from Calvin that was not previously known by every child of the Living God who came before, and who comes after, and we don't care to listen to murders, such as he was.

You might be surprised how many Calvinists have never read the works of Calvin. I never have. I probably never will. I got my views from the Bible, and not just from particular passages, but from a strong underlying theme throughout. Denouncing Calvin has little effect to the thinking of a Calvinist, just to let you know.

truefiction1 said:
Predestination exists with freewill intact, with nobody but God being big enough to know what determines the nature of a creature's will or whatever reasons lie behind it.

So in other words, you don't know what causes the will, but you do know that it isn't God. Then you believe that God is not the original cause of all of creation, but that a few billion parts of it, the human will, have an origin that is either self-extant, like God is, or else caused by something else which is also beyond God's causative power, ultimately leading to something else which is self-extant, another I Am, so to speak.

truefiction1 · Oct 25, 2018

nonaeroterraqueous said:
You might be surprised how many Calvinists have never read the works of Calvin. I never have. I probably never will. I got my views from the Bible, and not just from particular passages, but from a strong underlying theme throughout. Denouncing Calvin has little effect to the thinking of a Calvinist, just to let you know.

Then it makes no sense to be labeled a Calvinist. "Christian" is what we are, ever since the term came into existence in Antioch almost 2000 years ago.

nonaeroterraqueous said:
So in other words, you don't know what causes the will, but you do know that it isn't God. Then you believe that God is not the original cause of all of creation, but that a few billion parts of it, the human will, have an origin that is either self-extant, like God is, or else caused by something else which is also beyond God's causative power, ultimately leading to something else which is self-extant, another I Am, so to speak.

No, that's not what I meant at all. God gives those persons created in His image and likeness a most precious gift: freewill. It is theirs to do with as they will. God knows beforehand what they'll do with this precious gift, and that some will not use it to Love Him as He Loves them, yet God creates them and gives them the gift anyway. Freewill is exactly what the word means: free, not determined. It is not even determined by God, because if it was, it would not be freewill. What a person chooses is known by God beforehand, so that in the creation of that person, even their bad choices become integral parts of God's perfect plan for creation. Freewill is God's gift to all who are created in His image and likeness, even the so-called reprobates. God knows beforehand whether they will freely Love Him or not, and their lives serve His perfect creative plan even if they don't. Divine Love is not possible without freewill, because to Love in the way that God Loves is a free choice, not a compulsion of nature. "I AM that I AM" is to be seen as meaning "My Person-hood (freewill) authors my Divine nature, rather than being determined by it". What it means, therefore, to be in God's image and likeness is to have freewill that is gifted to us when we're created, (among other things). In God's perfect plan, Grace and Love reign, not determinism. For wherever God so wills, the order of nature is overcome, like in the virgin birth. God's power is so great as to overcome determinism, even if our limited creature minds can't overcome it or see how it can be overcome by God.

Dave L · Oct 26, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
Wow! So we're right back to the old "there is only one interpretation for the word, 'flesh'" are we? There are three!

1. flesh of an animal as meat, or that of our own bodies.
2. flesh, as in carnal nature, dealing with the mind/emotions where sin resides (Romans 8:8-9)
3. ancestry/kinsman

This discussion has been circular. You refuse to grasp Paul is talking of no. 2 and have again pointed to no. 1, the resurrection of our bodies, another topic altogether.

I'm getting off this merry-go-round. If you actually believe there is only one interpretation for the flesh, and not open to three, we'll get no where.

“And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.” (Luke 18:9–14)

nonaeroterraqueous · Oct 26, 2018

truefiction1 said:
Then it makes no sense to be labeled a Calvinist. "Christian" is what we are, ever since the term came into existence in Antioch almost 2000 years ago.

Labels are a convention. Do you want me to call myself a Christian and call you a non-Christian, and then debate the merits of monergism? That would get me kicked off of the board, and it would be an easy win for you, but we need other terms if we are to debate a subject.

truefiction1 said:
Freewill is exactly what the word means: free, not determined. It is not even determined by God, because if it was, it would not be freewill.

Then free will is or has a cause that is self-extant, not being caused by God. Whatever your magical first cause, it must necessarily come from outside of the universe and have existed from the beginning of eternity. Otherwise, it would not be self-extant, and it would have a cause in the chain of effects leading back to God. Then God would be the cause, and your thesis would be broken. However, since we have eliminated all possibilities that are not outside of the universe and all possibilities that have not existed since the beginning of eternity, we are left only with God, and you have eliminated God, also.

truefiction1 said:
"I AM that I AM" is to be seen as meaning "My Person-hood (freewill) authors my Divine nature, rather than being determined by it".

No, it simply means that his existence is eternal and un-caused. Before the world was created, I Am.

truefiction1 said:
No, that's not what I meant at all.

It's not what you meant, but it is what you said. I started by asking you what is the cause of the human will. You replied that it is a mystery, but you also have stated many times that it is not God. All of the alternatives left to us were caused by God, so anything else that could be the cause of the human will is, itself, caused by God. That makes the human will caused by God. Unless you believe that God is ignorant or makes mistakes, then this has natural implications.

The only alternative to the will having a cause not rooted in something that was caused by God is to have it rooted in something not caused by God, being self-extant and external to the created order of things, making this hitherto unknown thing either God, another god, or a force higher than God. You have rejected God as a possibility, and the other two are a great deal more heretical than what you claim of Calvinism.

YeshuaFan · Oct 26, 2018

JM said:
Scripture is pretty clear about this, we are free to choose what we desire, and what we desire most is freely chosen.

It is a matter of nature or disposition.

Christians who believe in the absolute predestination of all things deny the idea of freewill ‘if’ its packed with a presupposition that assumes total libertarian freewill behind it. If it’s assumed we have total libertarian freewill – it must be denied.

We do not deny freewill ‘if’ you mean the will of man freely choses what it desires. Paul explains this in Romans 7, “For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing”

Consider “Isaiah’s Commission” as it is called in the NASB.

6.8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!” 9 He said, “Go, and tell this people:

‘Keep on listening, but do not perceive;

Keep on looking, but do not understand.’

10 “Render the hearts of this people [e]insensitive,

Their ears [f]dull,

And their eyes [g]dim,

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,

Hear with their ears,

Understand with their hearts,

And return and be healed.”

11 Then I said, “Lord, how long?” And He answered,

“Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant,

Houses are without people

And the land is utterly desolate,

12 “The Lord has removed men far away,

And the [h]forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.

13 “Yet there will be a tenth portion in it,

And it will again be subject to burning,

Like a terebinth or an oak

Whose stump remains when it is felled.

The holy seed is its stump.”

Isaiah was sent to preach until the people listened but did not perceive…until their hearts became insensitive to the things of God, until their ears and eyes of understanding became dim. Why was this done? So the people “might not see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, and UNDERSTAND…” How long was Isaiah to perform this ministry of reprobation? “Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant, houses without people AND THE LAND IS UTTERLY DESOLATE.”

Did the people Isaiah preached to have total libertarian freewill?

Yours in the Lord,

jm

As a calvinist, would say that the concept of full and complete Free Will cannot be supported by the scriptures, as there is only One Being with such, and that i=s the Holy Trinity, as They have no internal/external forces that can move them to act contary to desires and wishes, unlike any of us created beings!

truefiction1 · Oct 26, 2018

nonaeroterraqueous said:
Labels are a convention. Do you want me to call myself a Christian and call you a non-Christian, and then debate the merits of monergism? That would get me kicked off of the board, and it would be an easy win for you, but we need other terms if we are to debate a subject.

Then free will is or has a cause that is self-extant, not being caused by God. Whatever your magical first cause, it must necessarily come from outside of the universe and have existed from the beginning of eternity. Otherwise, it would not be self-extant, and it would have a cause in the chain of effects leading back to God. Then God would be the cause, and your thesis would be broken. However, since we have eliminated all possibilities that are not outside of the universe and all possibilities that have not existed since the beginning of eternity, we are left only with God, and you have eliminated God, also.

No, it simply means that his existence is eternal and un-caused. Before the world was created, I Am.

It's not what you meant, but it is what you said. I started by asking you what is the cause of the human will. You replied that it is a mystery, but you also have stated many times that it is not God. All of the alternatives left to us were caused by God, so anything else that could be the cause of the human will is, itself, caused by God. That makes the human will caused by God. Unless you believe that God is ignorant or makes mistakes, then this has natural implications.

The only alternative to the will having a cause not rooted in something that was caused by God is to have it rooted in something not caused by God, being self-extant and external to the created order of things, making this hitherto unknown thing either God, another god, or a force higher than God. You have rejected God as a possibility, and the other two are a great deal more heretical than what you claim of Calvinism.

Freewill existing along with Divine Omniscience and sovereignty is not a mistake. It is a paradox. It can't really be understood or explained by created intellects and their linguistic devices . Rejecting this great paradox, or mystery in favor of finding the cause of the way all people ultimately use their free will in God, is essentially stating that God cannot devise some means by which His Divine omniscience and an undetermined freewill given to those created in God's image and likeness are able to both be true. So what you are saying, by ruling out this paradox, is that God's ways must be something which are able to be circumscribed and defined by the powers of your intellect and words, or else they cannot be true.

Now which of us is giving more glory to God?

YeshuaFan · Oct 26, 2018

truefiction1 said:
I don't mean to be rude, or unappreciative. but I have limited ability at this time to read lengthy posts. So, it would be best, for my purposes, if you gave short and simple answers to my short and simple questions. I'm well aware of the teachings of Scripture. Thanks for your answer, I'll consider it.

Paul did not say that he lacked the ability, having been given the Holy Spirit, to overcome the flesh, or the law of the flesh, only that there was a law of sin in his fleshly members that warred against the spirit. It is by means of the grace (power) of the Holy Spirit that Paul is able to "crucify the flesh, with all of its desires...". (Galatians 5:24) (Romans 6:6) It is by this same Spirit, with his own freewill being a fully operational agent, that he is able to succeed in becoming "dead to sin", and thereby also "alive in Christ" (Romans 6:11).

The point of Paul was that while we have now the desire to please and serve God in our new natures, the new nature in and by itself does not have the capability to live as we ought now, and that is why God gave to all of His saved the Holy Spirit of Promise, in order to be able to do that now!

truefiction1 · Oct 26, 2018

YeshuaFan said:
The point of Paul was that while we have now the desire to please and serve God in our new natures, the new nature in and by itself does not have the capability to live as we ought now, and that is why God gave to all of His saved the Holy Spirit of Promise, in order to be able to do that now!

We're pretty sure that the Holy Spirit gives those who believe God the power to live as we ought to now. This is something that is learned through experience, in addition to being taught in, and demonstrated by example, in Scripture. Plus it has been happening since the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost.

1stcenturylady · Oct 26, 2018

Dave L said:
“And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.” (Luke 18:9–14)

What does this parable have to do with a Christian's life after receiving the Holy Spirit? Jesus is telling us that the publican is in the state of humility we must be in to BECOME a Christian - to see our utter weakness and repent! To deny the power of the Holy Spirit is to be ungrateful with heinous false humility. Like the publican, Jesus saved me in the midst of a powerful sin I couldn't shake by myself. But with one filling of the Holy Spirit, a new strength of will and sensitivity of conscience I had never known overcame me. Must I falsely deny the power of the blood of Jesus to show some false humility? I will not be ashamed of His power residing in me! It is certainly nothing of myself! But Him! For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes. Instead, we who are saved are to testify to the infallible truth of the Word of God, not to discredit the apostles by contradicting them, and falsely claim Jesus left us as He found us - weak sinners of the flesh, just forgiven. Those who find a need to contradict the Word of God by mishandling it this way, and trying without success to shame me, I have to wonder about. They will have to work out their own salvation, and hopefully, with the fear of the Lord.

Jesus didn't give us freedom TO sin, but freedom FROM sin. That is the difference in teaching from the Reformation vs. the apostles.

YeshuaFan · Oct 26, 2018

truefiction1 said:
We're pretty sure that the Holy Spirit gives those who believe God the power to live as we ought to now. This is something that is learned through experience, in addition to being taught in, and demonstrated by example, in Scripture. Plus it has been happening since the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost.

Yes, as the Lord never intended to have any Christian live under their own means, and not under the empowering of the Holy Spirit!

truefiction1 · Oct 26, 2018

John Calvin's thinking, (and those who are like him), on undetermined freewill of persons created in God's image and likeness, existing alongside Divine omniscience and sovereignty:

"If I can't completely comprehend a thing with my most brilliant of human intellects and explain it by my masterful knowledge of Scripture and extraordinary command of language and articulation, then God cannot do it."

Orthodox Christian thinking, (and those who are like them), on undetermined freewill of persons created in God's image and likeness, existing alongside Divine omniscience and sovereignty:

"Although we cannot understand a thing that God is doing or explain how it can be true with our limited created intellects and words, we have no doubt that our Great God can do it. For our God is by far so much greater than us, so as to be doing many things which our minds cannot even begin to fathom."

God's thinking on undetermined freewill of persons created in God's image and likeness, existing alongside Divine omniscience and sovereignty:

"... My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Dave L · Oct 26, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
What does this parable have to do with a Christian's life after receiving the Holy Spirit? Jesus is telling us that the publican is in the state of humility we must be in to BECOME a Christian - to see our utter weakness and repent! To deny the power of the Holy Spirit is to be ungrateful with heinous false humility. Like the publican, Jesus saved me in the midst of a powerful sin I couldn't shake by myself. But with one filling of the Holy Spirit, a new strength of will and sensitivity of conscience I had never known overcame me. Must I falsely deny the power of the blood of Jesus to show some false humility? I will not be ashamed of His power residing in me! It is certainly nothing of myself! But Him! For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes. Instead, we who are saved are to testify to the infallible truth of the Word of God, not to discredit the apostles by contradicting them, and falsely claim Jesus left us as He found us - weak sinners of the flesh. Those who find a need to contradict the Word of God by mishandling it this way, and trying without success to shame me, I have to wonder about. They will have to work out their own salvation, and hopefully, with the fear of the Lord.

Jesus didn't give us freedom TO sin, but freedom FROM sin. That is the difference in teaching from the Reformation vs. the apostles.

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” (1 John 1:8–10)

1stcenturylady · Oct 26, 2018

Dave L said:
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” (1 John 1:8–10)

By your experience, obviously, you want to believe that John is speaking of Christians, even though your interpretation is the opposite of the apostle's, so I will leave you in your folly. I've already shown you many times, and you reject the truth. To say you are still a sinner, and find some kind of false humility in it, go ahead. But I know the truth and cannot lie. Here is what John actually believes of a Christian:

1 John 3:5-9
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

After being cleansed, we are no longer sinners, but saints. To say you are still a sinner, and you should know whether you are or aren't, you've never repented. But those who actually truly repent, are given the gift of the Holy Spirit to sin no more - to be free indeed! The false teaching that we are never free from sin, and have to repent over and over in some never ending cycle of sin/repent, sin/repent is not taught in scripture, but by false teachers who peddle weakness theology to their everlasting shame starting with the RCC and throughout the Reformation. Only through careful study of the actual Word of God in the age after the Reformation do we know the truth.

YeshuaFan · Oct 26, 2018

truefiction1 said:
John Calvin's thinking, (and those who are like him), on undetermined freewill of persons created in God's image and likeness, existing alongside Divine omniscience and sovereignty:

"If I can't completely comprehend a thing with my most brilliant of human intellects and explain it by my masterful knowledge of Scripture and extraordinary command of language and articulation, then God cannot do it."

Orthodox Christian thinking, (and those who are like them), on undetermined freewill of persons created in God's image and likeness, existing alongside Divine omniscience and sovereignty:

"Although we cannot understand a thing that God is doing or explain how it can be true with our limited created intellects and words, we have no doubt that our Great God can do it. For our God is by far so much greater than us, so as to be doing many things which our minds cannot even begin to fathom."

God's thinking on undetermined freewill of persons created in God's image and likeness, existing alongside Divine omniscience and sovereignty:

"... My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

We just say what the scriptures themselves teach to us, as sinners cannot and will not choose to come to Jesus to get saved, as their very sin natures will not want to do that!

1stcenturylady · Oct 26, 2018

YeshuaFan said:
We just say what the scriptures themselves teach to us, as sinners cannot and will not choose to come to Jesus to get saved, as their very sin natures will not want to do that!

So what you are being taught is that you must stop sinning before you can come to Christ. Jesus came to save sinners, not those who have already overcome sin.

Does anyone see anything wrong with that teaching?

YeshuaFan · Oct 26, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
So what you are being taught is that you must stop sinning before you can come to Christ. Jesus came to save sinners, not those who have already overcome sin.

Does anyone see anything wrong with that teaching?

No, I hold that sinners cannot come to jesus for salvation, apart from the Holy Spirit enabling them to do that, and that we all came just as we were!

1stcenturylady · Oct 26, 2018

YeshuaFan said:
No, I hold that sinners cannot come to jesus for salvation, apart from the Holy Spirit enabling them to do that, and that we all came just as we were!

All were given a measure of faith that the Holy Spirit uses to draw all men, but we must choose. That's where you and I differ. Calvinists believe those drawn have no choice but to accept. But not all are saved. Not that God rejected them and made them reject Him, but He gave them free will to choose.

EmSw · Oct 27, 2018

Dave L said:
We have many good conversations about predestination. But we seldom define the degree to which predestination affects the universe and all.

At the least it appears many think God imagined the universe before he created it. Let it run its own course without his intervention. And then created what he saw. Making it unchangeable and therefore predestined to happen just as he foresaw it.

Another view, the most extreme says: God created all, including every thought and act of every creature in the universe when he created the universe. That not a grain of sand on the furthest planet shifts position without God who also created its path and movements in the appointed time.

Both extremes depend on God’s perfect knowledge. If God only energizes but doesn’t control all, he then must watch and learn what might or might not happen. And this would mean he is not all knowing as the bible says.

Other theories emerge but the Westminster Confession Chapter 3:1; God's Eternal Decree defines biblical predestination this way.

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

So as I understand, we freely choose for the reasons God created with us, to base our choices on. As we meet up with them at the right time in life.

This resolves free will and divine sovereignty.

Dave, I see you are a Calvinist. I was wondering about that.

Here's a question for you. Do you believe Jesus is the Truth, and everything He said is the Truth?

Matthew 19:17
...but if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

Here we have a statement from Jesus. Is this the Truth or not? Is it a partial Truth? Does it only apply to some?

Since I wholeheartedly believe it is absolute, total truth, why would you not believe this truth to enter life? Did God ordain you to not believe this truth? Did He ordain you to not act upon this truth? Did He ordain you to believe this is a lie?

Why would God ordain such unbelief in you?

John 8
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
32 And you shall know the the truth shall make you free.”

Dave L · Oct 27, 2018

EmSw said:
Dave, I see you are a Calvinist. I was wondering about that.

Here's a question for you. Do you believe Jesus is the Truth, and everything He said is the Truth?

Matthew 19:17
...but if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

Here we have a statement from Jesus. Is this the Truth or not? Is it a partial Truth? Does it only apply to some?

Since I wholeheartedly believe it is absolute, total truth, why would you not believe this truth to enter life? Did God ordain you to not believe this truth? Did He ordain you to not act upon this truth? Did He ordain you to not believe this truth?

Why would God ordain such unbelief in you?

I'm not a Calvinist. Just a bible student. Jesus taught the rich young ruler how impossible it is to earn salvation by keeping the Law. You must also sell all, give to the poor, and take the bullet for the next guy in harms way if you want to earn salvation.

But Jesus did it for us who believe in him. So while we wear his righteousness and all it merits, we still struggle working on our own.

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