Absolute Predestination

Dave L

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We have many good conversations about predestination. But we seldom define the degree to which predestination affects the universe and all.

At the least it appears many think God imagined the universe before he created it. Let it run its own course without his intervention. And then created what he saw. Making it unchangeable and therefore predestined to happen just as he foresaw it.

Another view, the most extreme says: God created all, including every thought and act of every creature in the universe when he created the universe. That not a grain of sand on the furthest planet shifts position without God who also created its path and movements in the appointed time.

Both extremes depend on God’s perfect knowledge. If God only energizes but doesn’t control all, he then must watch and learn what might or might not happen. And this would mean he is not all knowing as the bible says.

Other theories emerge but the Westminster Confession Chapter 3:1; God's Eternal Decree defines biblical predestination this way.

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

So as I understand, we freely choose for the reasons God created with us, to base our choices on. As we meet up with them at the right time in life.

This resolves free will and divine sovereignty.
 
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Southernscotty

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Thanks for this Dave, I have been looking at predestination and election a lot the last couple of days and this is affirmation that I need to study this more to grasp this understanding fully.
I believe you to be correct.
 
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bcbsr

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We have many good conversations about predestination. But we seldom define the degree to which predestination affects the universe and all.

At the least it appears many think God imagined the universe before he created it. Let it run its own course without his intervention. And then created what he saw. Making it unchangeable and therefore predestined to happen just as he foresaw it.

Another view, the most extreme says: God created all, including every thought and act of every creature in the universe when he created the universe. That not a grain of sand on the furthest planet shifts position without God who also created its path and movements in the appointed time.

Both extremes depend on God’s perfect knowledge. If God only energizes but doesn’t control all, he then must watch and learn what might or might not happen. And this would mean he is not all knowing as the bible says.

Other theories emerge but the Westminster Confession Chapter 3:1; God's Eternal Decree defines biblical predestination this way.

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

So as I understand, we freely choose for the reasons God created with us, to base our choices on. As we meet up with them at the right time in life.

This resolves free will and divine sovereignty.
Sounds contradictory and double talk to me. If God is in control of every particular thing, as Calvinists would have it, then we are but puppets. Choice is no choice if there is only one option. What God ordained was for people to have free will, contrary to Calvinism, and that resolves the problem of evil.
 
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Dave L

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Sounds contradictory and double talk to me. If God is in control of every particular thing, as Calvinists would have it, then we are but puppets. Choice is no choice if there is only one option. What God ordained was for people to have free will, contrary to Calvinism, and that resolves the problem of evil.
How can we be puppets if we always choose what we want?
 
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Dave L

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I'm talking about real options, not imaginary options one construes in their own mind. Under Calvinism there are no real options. People are puppets under Calvinism.
All of your choices are for the reasons you think best.
 
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Albion

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I'm talking about real options, not imaginary options one construes in their own mind. Under Calvinism there are no real options. People are puppets under Calvinism.
Well, that seems to be the point at which a mistake is made. We all probably agree that God ordered the Universe, that he controls all things, etc, but predestination is normally understood in connection with election--the idea that he chose those who would receive Faith and so be saved. Consider the construction of the word itself--pre (in advance) destination (where we are headed). It doesn't cover everything else in life.

It is not implied by that doctrine that every last action and thought we do or have has been scripted in advance by God, just that that matter of the individual's salvation--or not--has been settled.
 
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HTacianas

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We have many good conversations about predestination. But we seldom define the degree to which predestination affects the universe and all.

At the least it appears many think God imagined the universe before he created it. Let it run its own course without his intervention. And then created what he saw. Making it unchangeable and therefore predestined to happen just as he foresaw it.

Another view, the most extreme says: God created all, including every thought and act of every creature in the universe when he created the universe. That not a grain of sand on the furthest planet shifts position without God who also created its path and movements in the appointed time.

Both extremes depend on God’s perfect knowledge. If God only energizes but doesn’t control all, he then must watch and learn what might or might not happen. And this would mean he is not all knowing as the bible says.

Other theories emerge but the Westminster Confession Chapter 3:1; God's Eternal Decree defines biblical predestination this way.

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

So as I understand, we freely choose for the reasons God created with us, to base our choices on. As we meet up with them at the right time in life.

This resolves free will and divine sovereignty.

I think of Calvinistic predestination as "the wrong wrench". If a person was working on a car and needed to remove a bolt, he would pick up a wrench and try to turn the bolt. If the wrench didn't fit the bolt, he would know the wrench was the wrong size. For a brief period he would not know what size wrench he needed, only that for now he had the wrong one.

Calvinistic predestination cannot be supported by the bible, simply because it does not allow God to change His mind, as the bible clearly describes Him doing. We may not know all the answers to every question, but we know that Calvin's ideas are wrong.
 
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Albion

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Calvinistic predestination cannot be supported by the bible, simply because it does not allow God to change His mind, as the bible clearly describes Him doing. We may not know all the answers to every question, but we know that Calvin's ideas are wrong.
I don't believe it is possible to show, in the Bible, a case of God predestining someone to salvation through the gift of Faith in Christ...and then rescinding that decision.
 
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Dave L

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I think of Calvinistic predestination as "the wrong wrench". If a person was working on a car and needed to remove a bolt, he would pick up a wrench and try to turn the bolt. If the wrench didn't fit the bolt, he would know the wrench was the wrong size. For a brief period he would not know what size wrench he needed, only that for now he had the wrong one.

Calvinistic predestination cannot be supported by the bible, simply because it does not allow God to change His mind, as the bible clearly describes Him doing. We may not know all the answers to every question, but we know that Calvin's ideas are wrong.
If God changes his mind, it would be to imperfection. All of his decrees are eternal and perfect. And therefore unchangeable. If God seems to change his mind in scripture at times, it was part of his perfect unchangeable decree to do so.
 
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HTacianas

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If God changes his mind, it would be to imperfection. All of his decrees are eternal and perfect. And therefore unchangeable. If God seems to change his mind in scripture at times, it was part of his perfect unchangeable decree to do so.

See Exodus 32, especially at 32:14:

Exo 32:14
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
 
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Dave L

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See Exodus 32, especially at 32:14:

Exo 32:14
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Yes, as I said, this he predestined along with all other seeming changes. The decree would not be perfect otherwise and lacking foresight.
 
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DeaconDean

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Calvinistic predestination cannot be supported by the bible, simply because it does not allow God to change His mind,

From a Calvinist, do you even know what Calvinism teaches?

The doctrine of "predestination" has been so blurred, that nobody takes the time to study anymore.

What is the goal of "predestination"? Is it the decree by God that says a person will walk this way with no choice in the mater what-so-ever? No.

WHat is the goal of "predestination"? Is it the decree by God that says I'm going to save or damn you whether you like it or not? No.

According to Romans 8:29, the goal of predestination is "to be conformed to the image of the Son".

And because so, we have gained an inheritance (Eph. 1:11), adoption (Eph. 1:5).

Predestination sets the goal, not the path, and not the will.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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...1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

So as I understand, we freely choose for the reasons God created with us, to base our choices on. As we meet up with them at the right time in life.

This resolves free will and divine sovereignty.

I think that is correct and I would add, God knows us perfectly, that is why He know what we will chose. And when one knows what people will chose, it is easy to see the future and it is also possible to guide things to certain direction by making certain things to happen as God has done.
 
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