Absolute Predestination

1stcenturylady

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Provide scripture that says "Faith is a work".

Otherwise...

God Bless

Till all are one.

Easy.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,

The scriptures Calvinists seem to misrepresent against works, are actually against works of circumcision, feast days, Sabbaths and dietary laws, etc. that Judaizers wanted to enforce. Those were the "works" Paul spoke against. But obedience and repentance is a 'work' to be shunned according to the Calvinists that I know. That is the very antithesis of abiding in Christ.

Your description of Arminian beliefs do not fit me either, as I live my life believing God is in control.
 
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Dave L

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While studying systematic theology on this subject, it came to my attention that the notion of supralapsarianism maintains a contradictory position with itself. It ascribes to God both a perfect and imperfect knowledge of events, in one case setting God outside of time so that he knows all things perfectly, but within the linear chronology when it comes time to disparage the idea of free will, arguing that God would have to know every possible choice and result, which, it is implied, he cannot.

Absolutely predestination, or preordination, vis a vis the Divine Decree, at least as it is understood by the extreme position, relegates all free will to the realm of illusion. We only think we have free will, though our free will choices are, in actual fact, the preordained choices God orchestrated for us to make. And then, when that chain of logic leads to the inevitable conclusion that preordained choices and actions ultimately excuse the choices that we didn't actually make (as they were preordained; they were our destiny, if you will), and that God is actually responsible for the sins we commit, we suddenly end up with disclaimers as shown in the quote given from the Westminster Confession: "God, from all eternity, did [...] freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills." So it happens because he wills it to happen. But even though he makes it happen, it's our fault when we do what he has forced us to do. And even though he forces our choices and actions, he's not forcing our choices and actions.

We have the free will to do exactly as what he has preordained that we should do. You can take any path you choose, as long as it's the one he has chosen for you.

The conclusion I have come to is that what God predestined is the end result, whether reward or punishment. And nowhere, in my opinion, is this more conspicuous than in the garden itself, which has given rise to so much discussion over the centuries concerning whether God wanted man to fall, caused man to fall, whether man was responsible for the fall, or whether God had some responsibility due to preordination, etc., etc., etc.

What I found after careful consideration is that God's will was that man should choose for himself if he fell or not. At the same time, God, having declared the end from the beginning, being himself outside of time, knew the choice man would make. When man made that choice, God's will was accomplished. And it was precisely due to his knowledge of what our choice would be that the Lamb was slain from the foundations of the earth.

Similarly, God, declaring the end from the beginning, being outside of time, knows each and every person who will answer his call. Knowing those who are his, and those who are not ... knowing who will repent, and who are never to be retrieved, God has fashioned some of us to be vessels of wrath and some not. Some are predestined to salvation, because that is the destiny of those whom he knew would answer the call. Others are predestined to destruction, because that is the destiny of those whom he knew would not answer the call.

In my view, all other explanations show God to be tyrannical, hateful, spiteful, a respecter of persons, etc., deciding who will be saved and who will not, making us sin through choices we can't control, but then blaming us for the deeds, allowing some to have faith, but others to reject it. The list goes on.

The only solution I could ever find is that God willed that we should have the free will to make our own choices, and to suffer the consequences, for good or ill. And knowing the choices, he planned accordingly, providing a means of redemption for those who would hear the shepherd's voice.

Romans 8:28-30 — And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Those are my thoughts on the subject.
I see both the supra and infra positions in scripture. But I don't go beyond the Westminster Confession in the matter. As I see it we choose what we want but God provided our nature that we choose according to. And he controls us in sending the reasons we base our choices on. In this way, we incur the guilt of sin. Because it is what we want. But he controls the environment and reasons we incorporate in our choices.

In essence, when God created us, he also created the life we would live and all of the choices we freely and willingly desired most to make along the way.
 
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Dave L

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What it sounds like you're proposing is compatibilism which is just determinism one step removed. This is why compatibilism is also known as soft determinism. It's wordplay, really. We may freely act according to our fundamental desires, on compatibilism, but those same desires are imposed upon us by God.

Over the last fifteen years or so, I have moved steadily away from the Calvinist viewpoint that I once held to a perspective somewhere between Traditionalism and Molinism. I think soft libertarianism accords best with Scripture, and reason, and reality. We have genuinely free choices that we make but the weight of those choices hardens us in a particular line that progressively limits our free choice.

I think God has sovereignly decreed that we should possess free agency. This seems to me to better resolve the problem of our free agency with God's sovereignty than a compatibilist view does. Or, alternatively, Molinism's ideas about God's omniscience also seem more likely than the Calvinist systematic.
Thanks for sharing. I don'y go beyond the Westminster Confession as as I stated, it reconciles free will and sovereignty without depriving either.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Thanks for sharing. I don'y go beyond the Westminster Confession as as I stated, it reconciles free will and sovereignty without depriving either.

Okay, I'm confused. I looked up Westminster Confession of Faith and it mainly listed Presbyterian. And Presbyterians are Calvinists. Don't Calvinists deny free will? All the Calvinists I've ever seen on the forums (my only contact) poo poo free will adamantly.
 
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AFrazier

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I see both the supra and infra positions in scripture. But I don't go beyond the Westminster Confession in the matter. As I see it we choose what we want but God provided our nature that we choose according to. And he controls us in sending the reasons we base our choices on. In this way, we incur the guilt of sin. Because it is what we want. But he controls the environment and reasons we incorporate in our choices.

In essence, when God created us, he also created the life we would live and all of the choices we freely and willingly desired most to make along the way.
This in many respects reminds me of Berkhoff, saying that God orchestrates events to guarantee the certainty of his will without the responsibility of the act, in that case speaking in terms of the fall itself. And my thought on this goes towards David and Uriah. David didn't kill Uriah. Nor did he make the decision of obedience to the king's will on behalf of Uriah. But David did orchestrate events that guaranteed the certainty of Uriah's death. And Nathan, speaking with the authority of God, told David that he slew Uriah with the sword of the children of Ammon.

So I have reservations about God shaping paths to push us towards inevitable scenarios of sin.

Although ... in the interest of being objective, Jesus does teach us to pray that God lead us not into temptation, by which we could infer in conjunction with the trials of Job that God does, on occasion, lead us down paths that force difficult decisions.

However, they are still decisions for us to make, however difficult, demonstrating again our free will.
 
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Dave L

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This in many respects reminds me of Berkhoff, saying that God orchestrates events to guarantee the certainty of his will without the responsibility of the act, in that case speaking in terms of the fall itself. And my thought on this goes towards David and Uriah. David didn't kill Uriah. Nor did he make the decision of obedience to the king's will on behalf of Uriah. But David did orchestrate events that guaranteed the certainty of Uriah's death. And Nathan, speaking with the authority of God, told David that he slew Uriah with the sword of the children of Ammon.

So I have reservations about God shaping paths to push us towards inevitable scenarios of sin.

Although ... in the interest of being objective, Jesus does teach us to pray that God lead us not into temptation, by which we could infer in conjunction with the trials of Job that God does, on occasion, lead us down paths that force difficult decisions.

However, they are still decisions for us to make, however difficult, demonstrating again our free will.
I think the most Westminster is the closest to scripture in the matter.
 
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Dave L

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Okay, I'm confused. I looked up Westminster Confession of Faith and it mainly listed Presbyterian. And Presbyterians are Calvinists. Don't Calvinists deny free will? All the Calvinists I've ever seen on the forums (my only contact) poo poo free will adamantly.
The Westminster Confession is Presbyterian Calvinist. And the London Baptist Confession is basically the same with some modifications. But you'll notice, they do not deny free will. They embrace it. But add, in my own words, God controls the reasons people base their choices on. So God maneuvers them according to his will, using their free will that always chooses what they think suits them best.
 
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AFrazier

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I think the most Westminster is the closest to scripture in the matter.
I understand. We all have to decide how we believe.

Personally, I'm not terribly impressed with all the conclusions of the Westminster Confession. I found some of the conclusions lacking, and more than a few of them based on conspicuously miscited scripture in the obvious interest of catering to a doctrine.

Nevertheless, I respect your position, even if I disagree with it.
 
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Dave L

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I understand. We all have to decide how we believe.

Personally, I'm not terribly impressed with all the conclusions of the Westminster Confession. I found some of the conclusions lacking, and more than a few of them based on conspicuously miscited scripture in the obvious interest of catering to a doctrine.

Nevertheless, I respect your position, even if I disagree with it.
I use many creeds as a safety check before saying too much about anything. I've found errors in all of them except the Ecumenical Creeds on the trinity and deity of Christ (person of Christ).
 
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1stcenturylady

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The Westminster Confession is Presbyterian Calvinist. And the London Baptist Confession is basically the same with some modifications. But you'll notice, they do not deny free will. They embrace it. But add, in my own words, God controls the reasons people base their choices on. So God maneuvers them according to his will, using their free will that always chooses what they think suits them best.

Do you know how close Calvinism is with Martin Luther's teachings?
 
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Dave L

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Do you know how close Calvinism is with Martin Luther's teachings?
Both Luther and Calvin were Augustinians. Augustine taught the same as they taught and established the doctrine of Total Depravity, affirmed to be true to scripture by the Council of Ephesus in 431.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Both Luther and Calvin were Augustinians. Augustine taught the same as they taught and established the doctrine of Total Depravity, affirmed to be true to scripture by the Council of Ephesus in 431.

Total depravity ONLY until Jesus. Right? Not still.

Since Adam all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Then Jesus was manifest to take away our sin and in Him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5
 
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Dave L

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Total depravity ONLY until Jesus. Right? Not still.

Since Adam all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Then Jesus was manifest to take away our sin and in Him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5
We are new creations in spirit. But our flesh is wicked with many old habits to break. We battle the flesh as Paul says in Galatians. But we rule over it and keep it at a temptation level only. When we die, nature erases all that is wrong with our bodies and God resurrects our bodies into Christ's glorified likeness.
 
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1stcenturylady

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We are new creations in spirit. But our flesh is wicked with many old habits to break. We battle the flesh as Paul says in Galatians. But we rule over it and keep it at a temptation level only. When we die, nature erases all that is wrong with our bodies and God resurrects our bodies into Christ's glorified likeness.

I interpret Galatians 5 differently than you do. I do not see verses 19-21 to be a Christian, but the opposite. I also see that through the Spirit we do conquer the flesh. Romans 8:9; Romans 6:2; Romans 6:7; Galatians 5:16; 1 John 3:9.

I just looked up some things Augustine said that were absolutely right according to scripture, but it appears that they were completely twisted around by Luther and Calvin to mean the opposite. Of course, I haven't gone in depth.

Augustine said to love God and live as you please. It almost sounds like live as you carnally please. But what he meant is God will place His desires in you to base whatever you do on love. Your actions that please you are placed there by God. In other words, love fulfills the law. He also said, you can't do anything against those holy desires. That's scriptural, and coincides with 1 John 3:9. That is a far cry from Luther's "don't just sin, make your sins strong, but love God more. He twisted Augustine's words, as well as most of scripture. Luther copied the warped Gnostic beliefs that we will sin in the flesh, but they are covered and not imputed to us as sin because of grace. Pure hogwash!
 
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Dave L

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I interpret Galatians 5 differently than you do. I do not see verses 19-21 to be a Christian, but the opposite. I also see that through the Spirit we do conquer the flesh. Romans 8:9; Romans 6:2; Galatians 5:16; 1 John 3:9.

I just looked up some things Augustine said that were absolutely right according to scripture, but it appears that they were completely twisted around by Luther and Calvin to mean the opposite. Of course, I haven't gone in depth.
Romans 7 is Paul before conversion as a Jew under the law.

The same flesh remains in Galatians 3, but Paul overcomes it in the power of the Holy Spirit. In my experience the flesh launches sinful memories I now repudiate. Imaginations I must reject. And temptations in daily life I must resist.

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.” (Galatians 5:16–26)
 
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Pneuma3

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By definition, that wouldn't be predestination, though.
By whose definition?

In 1960 a man joins the army, that army was predetermined 2 years before the man joined to go to Germany.

So was the man predetermined to go to Germany before he joined the army or after he joined the army.?

So it is with the church. the church is predestinated, the individuals are not.
 
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1stcenturylady

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The same flesh remains in Galatians 3, but Paul overcomes it in the power of the Holy Spirit. In my experience the flesh launches sinful memories I now repudiate. Imaginations I must reject. And temptations in daily life I must resist.

I don't see what you are seeing in chapter 3...

In chapter 5 those are not Christians. They do not inherit the Kingdom of God. That is not to say they weren't once upon a time. But if they die in idolatry or witchcraft, to name just two, they've chosen a new master and will burn with him.
 
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