Absolute Morality

[bricklayer]

I've been thinking about this, and maybe someone here can clear this up for me? None of this is intended to be insulting, so please don't take it that way, it's just some random thoughts I've been having and wanted to lay it out and hopefully get it cleared up, so I understand where people who believe this stuff are coming from.

So when christians talk about absolute morality, they seem to be referring to morality laid down by god. So he is the absolute source of morality, and tells us what is moral and what is not. Sometimes the bible is used as the source of morality, sometimes it's god, but the bible is the word of god so maybe it's the same thing. I'm a bit confused right away, but let's assume that morality comes from god for the point of this discussion.

I don't understand how they actually thinks this works. The issue I have is how do we know what is actually moral and what is actually not? God tells us, right? But how does God communicate this with us? I guess it either has to be him talking to us directly or through the bible?

I mean the bible seems an obvious answer, but the bible is pretty contradictory and open to interpretation. It's virtually impossible to get 2 christians to agree on every single aspect of the bible, and everyone seems to interpret it differently, whether they are christian or not. That's part of the reason there's so many subsets of christians that all believe quite different things. So if that's the moral code, but everyone is interpreting it differently that's not very absolute is it? And the bible is not exactly clear.

Let's take something simple, like murder. 'Thou shalt not kill'. Seems pretty straightforward. But then god has no problem killing himself. But maybe it's a 'do as I say and not as I do' type thing, which is fine. So he's not a moral example for us, we don't follow his examples, we just do what he says. But several times in the bible he tells people to kill other people. Sometimes he kills people himself, but he's god so he can do whatever he wants. But sometimes he tells people to kill other people, and they do, which then must be fine - because god told them to. So it's now 'don't kill ... unless god tells you to, then it's ok'. Right, got that so far.

So if someone today is told by god that they should kill someone, then is that ok? It's ok in the bible, so does that make it ok for us today? If it was, how would we tell who has genuinely received orders to kill from god, who is using it as an excuse and who is just crazy? How do we tell who it's ok for and who it's not ok for? Well, it's not ok for anyone according to our legal systems. But apparently it IS ok to kill someone in self defence, according to those same legal systems. But I don't see that mentioned in the 10 commandments. So is self defence not ok? Or is there another part of the bible that makes it ok? I'm not sure, but I am sure about how passionate some right wing christians in the USA are about gun laws. They don't seem to see killing in self defence as immoral, but is that backed up by clear scripture or just an interpretation thing? I mean you think it would make sense to put it right in the 10 commandments, if there's exceptions to these commandments? So, as far as I can tell killing in self defence is immoral in the bible (unless god tells you to do it) but legal in most countries. But then again laws and morality are two different things. Most people agree adultery is immoral, but it's not illegal (in most countries). What IS legal, in some parts of the USA is to kill some criminals. And funnily enough the more christian states like Texas tend to be those states. But in the bible there are many examples of old laws where death (carried out by people, not god) is prescribed for things like homosexuality and children disrespecting their parents. So maybe that makes it ok, or maybe those are old laws that don't apply anymore? 'An eye for an eye' is sometimes quoted as justification. So that part overrides the 10 commandments? Does that also mean that we should rape the rapists in jail too? But I digress.

Right, so where are we now? I still am not clear what the 'absolute' moral position is on killing, something that should be quite cut and dry. The best I can figure it with my laymans understanding of the bible is that killing is ok for god to do, cause he's god, but not ok for us, unless god tells us to, even though that's not ok by law in most countries, and the 10 commandments (where we get our killing instructions) don't say anything killing in self defence or capital punishment being ok, but other parts of the bible seem to imply it's ok, if you feel those parts overrule the 10 commandments. Right.

And what about more complex things? Like slavery or video piracy? How does this christian absolute moral code apply to these things?

Ok, I'm done trying to figure it out. Can someone explain it for me please? I don't hold any of these views, but I was trying to understand where those on the other side are coming from, but I can't make head nor tail of it.

It's totally possible, in fact probable, that there's some holes in my logic and/or a misunderstanding of the bible or 2 thrown in there for good measure, so if anyone can help me clear that up I'd genuinely appreciate it.

Three Points:

Point one- It's "Thou shall not murder" not thou shall not kill. (big difference)

Point two- Morality exists within an individual but can only have being (actualized existence) in a relationship.
God's morality exists apart from His relationship to His creation. God's morality actually exists (has being) between God the Father, God the Holy Spirit and God the Son.

Point three- God condescends to man in two ways: inspiration of the Word of God and incarnation of the Word of God.

 

[Glas Ridire]

This is both legally a false statement, and morally and ethically somewhat apropos for the board.

Wait, you mean to tell me that someone can legally obtain a movie before its release and show it for profit while retaining that profit without compensating its owners? Have you read that funny little screen that comes on before VHS, DVD and Bluray . . . . videos? It mentions the fact that pirating said video is illegal.

The Bible never says straight up that all morals are absolute. Indeed, for reasons the Bible neglects to make clear, David is given a pass on the death penalty for both adultery and murder.

'em no. . . . you may not have read the book, judgement by God is not limited to a person's earthly lifetime. There is no "free pass", there is however redemption through Jesus Christ & not just for David.

The concept of natural law is one invented by man to explain the types of things pertaining to persistent cultural taboos you quite eloquently touch on, but to change the clear wording and meaning of the Bible to give absolute authority to this man made explanation, in my view, oversteps the bounds of good theology by leaps and bounds.

No. 180 degrees, please. Natural Law is not man made any more than the existence of water tables and photosynthesis are man made. We may have words to define them and explain them even ways to effect them in the short term, but the untended dam eventually leaks and the plant eventually either dies or gets light. Our "control" is fleeting and the natural order is patient. That Natural Law is in harmony with the will of the God who created everything, should be of no surprise.

BTW, what theological degree do you have?

 

[Shane Roach]

Wait, you mean to tell me that someone can legally obtain a movie before its release and show it for profit while retaining that profit without compensating its owners? Have you read that funny little screen that comes on before VHS, DVD and Bluray . . . . videos? It mentions the fact that pirating said video is illegal.

- Google Scholar

It's not half so complicated as you're trying to make it. Copyright violation, while illegal, is not theft, and it is dishonest to claim otherwise.

I mean, it's not dishonest to be mistaken about it obviously, but when huge corporations run around talking about theft when their legal departments obviously know better, that is lying.

'em no. . . . you may not have read the book, judgement by God is not limited to a person's earthly lifetime. There is no "free pass", there is however redemption through Jesus Christ & not just for David.

Seriously? There's a death penalty for adultery and murder in the O.T. That's what I'm talking about. That much IS objectively true. You may not have read the book.....

No. 180 degrees, please. Natural Law is not man made any more than the existence of water tables and photosynthesis are man made. We may have words to define them and explain them even ways to effect them in the short term, but the untended dam eventually leaks and the plant eventually either dies or gets light. Our "control" is fleeting and the natural order is patient. That Natural Law is in harmony with the will of the God who created everything, should be of no surprise.

BTW, what theological degree do you have?

At this point, I am not even sure you know what I said. The term "natural law" as you are using it is not something that came about all of a sudden, and it has a whole host of transitory philosophical and theological implications that, from a Christian standpoint, the book of Genesis simply does not suffer from.

I don't have a degree of any sort. Feel free to make boundless appeals to authority now. It'd be about par for the course.

And here was me actually thinking you and I would have fun talking. *buckles helmet back on*

 

[Eudaimonist]

If you're not a non-cognitivist, you're a stupid doody head.

THAT is an objective statement.

Oh, it gets worse. Much worse.

I'm a:

• Cognitivist
• Moral realist
• Ethical naturalist

All at the same time.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

I think that the purpose God has for morality is to maintain the human population.

So, morality to you is some sort of species survivalism?

Without a human population to apply morality to, morality would not exist, if you see what I mean.

Yes, I do see what you mean. Morality to you has a context. That's much better, IMO, than making it acontextual, as some Christians try to do.

I could be wrong about this though, it's just my own little thoughts.

Those thoughts aren't necessarily so little. They are more sensible than most I have seen.

I really do wish I could know why God says things are right or wrong, even though it's beyond us humans. If I could just be privy to that info, I would be able to fight the temptation to sin with more vigor.

Yes, there is the epistemic problem.

Have you watched the video? Is your view divine command theory as described there? Or are you more of a moral realist?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Paxton25]

The only absolute morality is found in God. No such morality exists in this corrupted universe. It is only by God's mercy that this planet wasn't scrapped after the sins of Adam and Eve and rebuilt.

Our entire existence as a species goes on while God weaves perfection out of our imperfections. Most of our lives are lived on the backside of a tapestry: a patchwork of shapes, tangles, and cross threads--a perspective that makes little sense on its own until we get the occasional glimpse of the other side.

Then, all at once, we understand. Life's not all for nothing. There is a reason and a purpose for everything and everyone because God has given it one. He could have thrown us all in the trash, but he didn't.

God is the ultimate scavenger. Nothing or no one goes to waste. While it is true that sin (missing the mark) ultimately leads to death, that does not mean that each of us who misses the mark of absolute morality is tossed into a lake of burning sulfur or is left alone in agony for eternity.

A pardon is available to us all; all we need to do is to recognize which side of the tapestry we're on to accept it with gratitude--it's our eternal pass to the perfect and beautiful side of the tapestry.

 

[Eudaimonist]

It is only by God's mercy that this planet wasn't scrapped after the sins of Adam and Eve and rebuilt.

God should have scrapped the Earth over a piece of fruit?

Life's not all for nothing.

Of course life is not all for nothing.

[God] could have thrown us all in the trash, but he didn't.

It's good to know that we're appreciated. We're trash, but he's keeping us around anyway.

God is the ultimate scavenger. Nothing or no one goes to waste.

We are just tools to be used.

While it is true that sin (missing the mark) ultimately leads to death, that does not mean that each of us who misses the mark of absolute morality is tossed into a lake of burning sulfur or is left alone in agony for eternity.

Even though that would be justice for orcs such as us.

A pardon is available to us all; all we need to do is to recognize which side of the tapestry we're on to accept it with gratitude--it's our eternal pass to the perfect and beautiful side of the tapestry.

Yep, complete trash like us.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Yodeling Ice Maelstrom]

So, morality to you is some sort of species survivalism?

Yes.

Yes, there is the epistemic problem.

Have you watched the video? Is your view divine command theory as described there? Or are you more of a moral realist?

Well, both. Because I believe that God is the being by whom all reality was created, and that therefore his attributes would logically have to include omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence, I follow the commands of God in his word to us with regard to morality. I also try to understand, from the limited human vantage I have, why God delineated morality as it is, that is to say, what the reason is for morality.

/Also, I have a long and boring postulate on why I think that the creator being would have to have those attributes, if you're interested in that.

 

[JoeyArnold]

no absolutes means no morality at all

 

[Eudaimonist]

no absolutes means no morality at all

How do you arrive at that conclusion, Joey?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[JoeyArnold]

can you be absolutely sure that murder is wrong?

 

[ziggy29]

God's morality is absolute. Our interpretations of it are not, because we are imperfect creatures influenced by other factors and often by the predominant culture of the time. Indeed, cultural changes lead to many people reinterpreting Scripture in ways they hadn't considered before.

 

[Eudaimonist]

can you be absolutely sure that murder is wrong?

Why should I have to be absolutely sure that murder is wrong in order to have a morality?


eudaimonia,

mark

 

[JoeyArnold]

on this side of Heaven, we will not understand how to be totally moral

 

[JoeyArnold]

if you are not absolutely sure that murder is wrong, then you cannot absolutely be sure that it aint

 

[Eudaimonist]

on this side of Heaven, we will not understand how to be totally moral

What leads you to that conclusion?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

if you are not absolutely sure that murder is wrong, then you cannot absolutely be sure that it aint

How does that prevent one from having a morality?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[JoeyArnold]

it prevents you from being absolutely sure about morality

 

[ziggy29]

it prevents you from being absolutely sure about morality

I'm pretty sure that if we get most of the big stuff right and make a sincere effort to get it all right with God -- even where we're mistaken -- I'm pretty sure God will be OK with that.

 

[JoeyArnold]

not exactly