Abraham was justified in Genesis TWELVE.

[Catholic Dude]

James believed the same thing, ... ... ...

Your comments dont mention Abraham at all and especially his justification in Genesis 12.

 

[Ormly]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly

The above sequence of events is wrong.

The Bible clearly states that Abraham had faith. On that account God chose him. God never chooses anyone who doesn't initially have faith in Him. It is only after God chooses him and deals with him through his life's choices, whereby Abraham is rectified, does God reveal the plan for His Family of "many sons brought into glory"..

If distinctions can be made and it all can be viewed in that light, perspectives will change.

What perspectives will change? All your claim leads to is a situation where Abraham believed in and pleased God all that time yet was never justified, that is absurd. Further if it was that hard for Abraham to be justified, imagine how hard it must be for us.

He was justified. If you knew your Bible you would know that one is justified by faith ---- in God. They need no salvation, just redemption that Jesus' Blood accomplished. But you will never understand that given your skewed 'perspective'.

Why don't ask what is meant by 'Abraham's bosom'? You will find that that is where all justified people went when they died, to await Jesus and His "Shed Blood" that set them free.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Abraham had what Paul called "faith working through love" (Gal 5:6).

so when Did the spirit indwell him since this was a new thing once Christ offered to the church after the cross... Gal 5:22 this is a fruit from the Spirit

Abraham never had indwelling He was looking forward to eternal life

Indwelling of the Son of God breought forth Eternal life ..1 john 5:11-13

You are putting obedience against faith, when they actually are inseparable. Heb 11:6 DEFINES faith in its essence, you must believe God exists and that He rewards those who seek Him.

correction
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

when Enoch walked the earth so did the Son of God ... where is the Son of God now.... how does one seek him now? col 3:1-4

John 15:16 You have not chosen me , but I have chosen you.

What perspectives will change? All your claim leads to is a situation where Abraham believed in and pleased God all that time yet was never justified,

John 15:5 b for without the Son you can do nothing

that is absurd. Further if it was that hard for Abraham to be justified, imagine how hard it must be for us.


Very true. The priest was Melchizedec and he DID bless Abraham. It would be very interesting to bless someone who was never justified.

Abraham was elect..heb 1:14 ..
called by God and chosen ....matt 20:16 ...
those God promised Him things showing the goodness of Salavation Romans 2:4

Thank God that we can use are Eternal life to experience God's kind of Life ! 1 john 5:11-13

 

[Ormly]

Indwelling of the Son of God breought forth Eternal life ..1 john 5:11-13

That too, however, John is not speaking just of eternal life but life now.

VS 11. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. . . . . Vs 14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

 

[A Brother In Christ]

when does this happen to all or just believers...

1 cor 12:12-13, romans 8:9

 

[Ormly]

when does this happen to all or just believers...

1 cor 12:12-13, romans 8:9

Are asking of the simply saved or those born again?

Given the scriptures In my rationale, I see a difference between the two whch has a bearing on the issue of election. [selection]

 

[A Brother In Christ]

there is a little difference ... but these must have happen for one to be saved.

Heb 1:14

 

[Ormly]

there is a little difference ... but these must have happen for one to be saved.

Heb 1:14

There is big difference in my estimation. One comes to Christ for salvation and may not ever go beyond that point in his spiritality. The other, upon salvation hungers for God and is chosen by Him to become as He is.. heirs of His salvation. Perhaps the word 'salvation' needs before definition, eh? Your suggested verse is a good starting point for stimulating interest for the one truly interested.

 

[Catholic Dude]

so when Did the spirit indwell him since this was a new thing once Christ offered to the church after the cross... Gal 5:22 this is a fruit from the Spirit

It indwelt in him the time he was first justified, just as it does with us.

Abraham never had indwelling He was looking forward to eternal life

If Abraham didnt have sanctifying grace in his soul when he died he couldnt enter Heaven. Entering Heaven requires that your soul is sanctified before you depart from this life (Rev 21:27).

Indwelling of the Son of God breought forth Eternal life ..1 john 5:11-13

Amen (Rom 5:5). As long as sanctifying grace is in your soul you are an adopted child of God and heir to Heaven.

correction
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

when Enoch walked the earth so did the Son of God ... where is the Son of God now.... how does one seek him now? col 3:1-4

Correction? Are you kidding me? You didnt even quote the verse I was talking about.

John 15:16 You have not chosen me , but I have chosen you.

John 15:5 b for without the Son you can do nothing

I never denied this so your passages dont contradict anything I have said.

Abraham was elect..heb 1:14 ..
called by God and chosen ....matt 20:16 ...
those God promised Him things showing the goodness of Salavation Romans 2:4

Thank God that we can use are Eternal life to experience God's kind of Life ! 1 john 5:11-13

Wow. You not only are not responding to what Im saying, you are tossing out random ideas.

I dont have the time or energy to spend responding to things like these.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

It indwelt in him the time he was first justified, just as it does with us.

john 14:17 states that the Holy Spirit .. shall be in you as a future event that has not happened...

If Abraham didnt have sanctifying grace in his soul when he died he couldnt enter Heaven. Entering Heaven requires that your soul is sanctified before you depart from this life (Rev 21:27).

We are saved in the Spirit since God is spirit first john 4:24

1 peter 1:9 recieving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 10 of which salvation theophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you.

Amen (Rom 5:5). As long as sanctifying grace is in your soul you are an adopted child of God and heir to Heaven.


Correction? Are you kidding me? You didnt even quote the verse I was talking about.

I quoted heb 11:1

you quoted heb 11:6

I never denied this so your passages dont contradict anything I have said.


Wow. You not only are not responding to what Im saying, you are tossing out random ideas.

I dont have the time or energy to spend responding to things like these.

Man does not search out Christ with out being chosen of God.... why one must be saved to go to the throne of grace

 

[Ormly]

Originally Posted by A Brother In Christ
so when Did the spirit indwell him since this was a new thing once Christ offered to the church after the cross... Gal 5:22 this is a fruit from the Spirit

It indwelt in him the time he was first justified, just as it does with us.

1. There was no indwelling of anything at this time. Ergo, Justification was no indwelling.
2. Justification is something that is attributed to one who is righteous. Abraham was righteous.

Quote:
Abraham never had indwelling He was looking forward to eternal life

If Abraham didnt have sanctifying grace in his soul when he died he couldnt enter Heaven. Entering Heaven requires that your soul is sanctified before you depart from this life (Rev 21:27).

There has never been nor ever existed any “special sanctifying grace” to be given to anyone, ever. God’s Grace is the overflowing of His Nature that everyone born under the sun is capable of witnessing, leaving man without excuse for his unbelief. Abraham believed. His life testified to it and it was credited to his account as righteousness, enabling God to choose him for what He had in Mind for a people He would bring forth.

Quote:
Indwelling of the Son of God breought forth Eternal life ..1 john 5:11-13

Amen (Rom 5:5). As long as sanctifying grace is in your soul you are an adopted child of God and heir to Heaven.

Again, you are mis-guided concerning “sanctifying grace”. Here: “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to *become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” John 1:11-12 (KJV) No special grace needed.
* to become adopted sons. . . . Future tense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by holdon
"man is not justified except but by the faith of Jesus Christ" Gal 2:16.

The "except but" is a very strong term: it excludes all other means. One is justified only by faith. Clear and simple.

The REAL issue is justification by imputation (Protestant) or infusion (Catholic)? UNTIL you realize that is the real issue we will continue to talk past each other.

Neither is correct and it isn’t an issue of Protestant vs Catholic definition but of understanding the scriptures when speaking of Justification as it relates to righteousness and man’s ability to arrive at that point in his life. However, accurately defining and linking the two will reveal that man in all his goodness he is capable of still remains separated from God because all his righteousness and justification is not sufficient for what only the Blood of Christ could accomplish, i.e., restoration to God’s original ultimate intention for man; Son-ship, Joint-Heir-ship and Throne-ship. . . Divine-Humanity. . . . Jesus was the first to achieve it and has enabled us to follow suit. It is called, "the way of the cross".

 

[A Brother In Christ]

The OT saints could never become sons ... for they could not mature Heb 7:19 ... God the Son learned thu suffering heb 5:8... thus instead of blessing on earth we get blessings in the heavens so that we get tribulation from the world so that we rely on God more!

 

[Ormly]

The OT saints could never become sons ... !

I agree. It is a NT thing necessitating the Pentecostal experience.

 

[Catholic Dude]

I agree. It is a NT thing necessitating the Pentecostal experience.

I disagree, places like Lk 1:15 say St. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in the womb. (Jesus wasnt even born yet).

 

[A Brother In Christ]

So the english is poor translation .. or God is a liar

 

[Ormly]

I disagree, places like Lk 1:15 say St. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in the womb. (Jesus wasnt even born yet).

What was the baptism of Jesus Christ? John the baptist was never baptised by Jesus Christ. Is that not true?

BtW, do you know how many manifestations there are of the Holy Spirit? It would behove to find out.

 

[Catholic Dude]

What was the baptism of Jesus Christ?

The Baptism of Jesus was what is traditionally called a Theophany. It is a special revealing of God to man. In that event the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were for the first time shown together. It was also to set a pattern for how Christians are supposed to be Baptized.

John the baptist was never baptised by Jesus Christ. Is that not true?

I dont know if he ever was or not.

BtW, do you know how many manifestations there are of the Holy Spirit? It would behove to find out.

What do you mean?

 

[Ormly]

The Baptism of Jesus was what is traditionally called a Theophany. It is a special revealing of God to man. In that event the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were for the first time shown together. It was also to set a pattern for how Christians are supposed to be Baptized.

I dont know if he ever was or not.

What do you mean?

Well, John said this: "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire". So here we see that Jesus is the mighty baptiser in-with the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 3:11 (KJV)

Now we know, while on earth, Jesus never baptised anyone. Only His disciples baptised with water. Before He departed and after He breathed on them in the upper room for the *indwelling of the Holy Spirit in John 20:22, we have this by Him:

"And, being assembled together with them, Jesus commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." "I will send the promise of my Father upon you. Tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high." Acts 1:4-5 (KJV) Luke 24:49 (KJV)

Confirmed in Acts 2 by Peter, you know who he was, stood and said:

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, [water baptism here] and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Acts 2:38-39 (KJV)

So there we have two manifestations of the holy Ghost mentioned in the Bible. The third has to do with Jesus saying this:

" . . .the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:17 (KJV)

So we have the "with", 'indwelling' and "coming upon" of the Holy Spirit all summed up in Jesus Christ.

This is a perfect example of the Godhead in one person and in each person of the Godhead can this said to be true by it 3 in 1 or 1 in 3. It doesn't matter which one you consider, all are in perfect union with each another.

*The first ever to be "born again".
I hope this helps someone wrestling with this issue.

 

[zeke37]

Very true. The priest was Melchizedec and he DID bless Abraham. It would be very interesting to bless someone who was never justified.

so, do you.....like me.....believe that Melchizedek was the Messiah back then? If so, then Abe was good to go right? And Christ uses Abe as example when explaining what heaven is like in Luke16, and he was on the good side of heaven then...justified...

His name means King of the upright/just/chosen....and Salem means peace...

IMO, that can only reference Him.

in His service
c

 

[nobdysfool]

so, do you.....like me.....believe that Melchizedek was the Messiah back then? If so, then Abe was good to go right? And Christ uses Abe as example when explaining what heaven is like in Luke16, and he was on the good side of heaven then...justified...

His name means King of the upright/just/chosen....and Salem means peace...

IMO, that can only reference Him.

in His service
c

Melchizedek was the pre-incarnate Christ, no doubt. The term "the Angel of the Lord" is an indication as well.