Abraham was justified in Genesis TWELVE.

[A Brother In Christ]

Huh?

Genesis 12 KJV

1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. 4So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

He did not obey here ... He was suppose to go alone .. His family not relatives

Abraham was covering ... just in case God is telling the truth ... I will Go if not Lot is with me

But in Gen 15:6 Abraham beleived that His family would be like the stars in heaven.

yet he had no sons! faith from God

 

[Catholic Dude]

He did not obey here ... He was suppose to go alone .. His family not relatives

Abraham was covering ... just in case God is telling the truth ... I will Go if not Lot is with me

But in Gen 15:6 Abraham believed that His family would be like the stars in heaven.

yet he had no sons! faith from God

That is a popular excuse, but the fact is the Scripture gives no hint that Abraham "disobeyed" or that God was not pleased with him. In fact the excuse that Lot was not supposed to be with him runs into even greater problems in Gen 13:

10 Lot looked up and saw that the whole plain of the Jordan was well watered, like the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, toward Zoar. (This was before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.) 11 So Lot chose for himself the whole plain of the Jordan and set out toward the east. The two men parted company: 12 Abram lived in the land of Canaan, while Lot lived among the cities of the plain and pitched his tents near Sodom. 13 Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.

14 The LORD said to Abram after Lot had parted from him, "Lift up your eyes from where you are and look north and south, east and west. 15 All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring forever. 16 I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted. 17 Go, walk through the length and breadth of the land, for I am giving it to you."

18 So Abram moved his tents and went to live near the great trees of Mamre at Hebron, where he built an altar to the LORD.
​

Here Abraham is alone, God appears again, makes no indication Abraham disobeyed, and He reaffirms His promise. Abraham responds again in obedience.

 

[Oye11]

That is a popular excuse,

When I first read this I was surprised it was "popular" and thought it just something made up by Beloved57. But on second thought, I`m never reallly surprised at the machinations of many men called "doctor" and their dogged determination to make every verse in the bible yield to their preconceptions....

 

[A Brother In Christ]

He did not obey here ... He was suppose to go alone .. His family not relatives

Abraham was covering ... just in case God is telling the truth ... I will Go if not Lot is with me

But in Gen 15:6 Abraham beleived that His family would be like the stars in heaven.

yet he had no sons! faith from God

That is a popular excuse, but the fact is the Scripture gives no hint that Abraham "disobeyed" or that God was not pleased with him. In fact the excuse that Lot was not supposed to be with him runs into even greater problems in Gen 13:

10 Lot looked up and saw that the whole plain of the Jordan was well watered, like the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, toward Zoar. (This was before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.) 11 So Lot chose for himself the whole plain of the Jordan and set out toward the east. The two men parted company: 12 Abram lived in the land of Canaan, while Lot lived among the cities of the plain and pitched his tents near Sodom. 13 Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.​

14 The LORD said to Abram after Lot had parted from him, "Lift up your eyes from where you are and look north and south, east and west. 15 All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring forever. 16 I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted. 17 Go, walk through the length and breadth of the land, for I am giving it to you." ​

18 So Abram moved his tents and went to live near the great trees of Mamre at Hebron, where he built an altar to the LORD.​

Here Abraham is alone, God appears again, makes no indication Abraham disobeyed, and He reaffirms His promise. Abraham responds again in obedience.

gen 12:1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy Father's house unto a land that I will show you.

what did Abram do? gen 12:4 who is Lot... Kindred

let look at Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after recieve for an inheritance, obeyed ; and went out not knowing whether he went.

what is disobediance...


where did he believe ... God offered ..
yet no scripture that says He believed

Gen 15:6 And Abraham believed the Lord and God counted it to him for righteousness

deal with context of the bible ... not your theology

 

[Ormly]

What with all the colors except they confuse any reader trying to understand?

 

[Catholic Dude]

When I first read this I was surprised it was "popular" and thought it just something made up by Beloved57. But on second thought, I`m never reallly surprised at the machinations of many men called "doctor" and their dogged determination to make every verse in the bible yield to their preconceptions....

I have seen a few Protestants from different denominations bring it up so it isnt just B57 who came up with it.

gen 12:1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy Father's house unto a land that I will show you.

what did Abram do? gen 12:4 who is Lot... Kindred

let look at Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after recieve for an inheritance, obeyed ; and went out not knowing whether he went.

what is disobediance...

where did he believe ... God offered ..
yet no scripture that says He believed

Gen 15:6 And Abraham believed the Lord and God counted it to him for righteousness

deal with context of the bible ... not your theology

You are assuming Abraham disobeyed/sinned here and there is nothing in Scripture indicating such a thing. Even if you want to claim he "disobeyed" in Gen 12 you still have to address the Gen 13 passage I pointed to. I dont know ANYWHERE in Scripture where someone disobeys God and keeps getting blessed. The "leave your family" was indicating Abraham had to leave the life he knew, which was with his parents and relatives and go to a unknown land, it didnt mean Abraham had to head out absolutely alone.


Now that I think about it, lets say God meant Abraham had to go totally ALONE, that means his wife Sarah couldnt come either... BUT how is God going to fulfill the promise for descendants and a son without Sarah?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

gen 12:1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy Father's house unto a land that I will show you.

what did Abram do? gen 12:4 who is Lot... Kindred

let look at Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after recieve for an inheritance, obeyed ; and went out not knowing whether he went.

what is disobediance...


where did he believe ... God offered ..
yet no scripture that says He believed


Gen 15:6 And Abraham believed the Lord and God counted it to him for righteousness

deal with context of the bible ... not your theology

.


You are assuming Abraham disobeyed/sinned here and there is nothing in Scripture indicating such a thing. Even if you want to claim he "disobeyed" in Gen 12 you still have to address the Gen 13 passage I pointed to. I dont know ANYWHERE in Scripture where someone disobeys God and keeps getting blessed. The "leave your family" was indicating Abraham had to leave the life he knew, which was with his parents and relatives and go to a unknown land, it didnt mean Abraham had to head out absolutely alone.


Now that I think about it, lets say God meant Abraham had to go totally ALONE, that means his wife Sarah couldnt come either... BUT how is God going to fulfill the promise for descendants and a son without Sarah?

so what does grace mean?

you think you are good?

Leave his kindred.... argue with scripture
and understand literally otherwise God is a lier...

putting something that is not there is using human imagination gen 6:5

 

[Oye11]

so what does grace mean?

you think you are good?

Leave his kindred.... argue with scripture
and understand literally otherwise God is a lier...

putting something that is not there is using human imagination gen 6:5

To the contrary, God has told the truth. Abraham had faith in Genesis 12. It is right there in black and white in Hebrews 11-8.

 

[Oye11]

Now that I think about it, lets say God meant Abraham had to go totally ALONE, that means his wife Sarah couldnt come either... BUT how is God going to fulfill the promise for descendants and a son without Sarah?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

so what does grace mean?

you think you are good?

Leave his kindred.... argue with scripture
and understand literally otherwise God is a lier...

putting something that is not there is using human imagination gen 6:5

To the contrary, God has told the truth. Abraham had faith in Genesis 12. It is right there in black and white in Hebrews 11-8.

gen 12:1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy Father's house unto a land that I will show you.

what did Abram do? gen 12:4 who is Lot... Kindred

let look at Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after recieve for an inheritance, obeyed ; and went out not knowing whether he went.

what is disobediance...


where did he believe ... God offered ..
yet no scripture that says He believed


Gen 15:6 And Abraham believed the Lord and God counted it to him for righteousness


Gen 12:10-20 Abraham believed God so much that He was afraid to call Sarai his wife ... let Pharaoh sleep with her... God caused plagues to come ... was this land given to Abraham.... no

Abraham believe in Gen 15:6 then God named the land in gen 15:18-21 giving borders ... but Abraham family has never occupied all this land yet... but they will in the Millinial Kingdom

 

[Ormly]

Some things were permissible but not all decisions were profitable.

 

[Oye11]

gen 12:1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy Father's house unto a land that I will show you.

what did Abram do? gen 12:4 who is Lot... Kindred

let look at Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after recieve for an inheritance, obeyed ; and went out not knowing whether he went.

what is disobediance...


where did he believe ... God offered ..
yet no scripture that says He believed


Gen 15:6 And Abraham believed the Lord and God counted it to him for righteousness


Gen 12:10-20 Abraham believed God so much that He was afraid to call Sarai his wife ... let Pharaoh sleep with her... God caused plagues to come ... was this land given to Abraham.... no

Abraham believe in Gen 15:6 then God named the land in gen 15:18-21 giving borders ... but Abraham family has never occupied all this land yet... but they will in the Millinial Kingdom

More repetitious song and dance. Yes, Abraham is listed in Hebrews 11 in the "faith hall of fame" for his faith, odedience and worship in Genesis 12. End of story. So what if he later said Sara was his sister? In this circumstance it involved preserving life and limb in a primitive society. Later patriarchs did worse but were still in convenant at the time. Your love of your theology leads you to commentaries to regurgitate some disingenuous smoke and mirrors.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

deny that he disobeyed then ... . your soul on the line

 

[Catholic Dude]

so what does grace mean?

you think you are good?

Leave his kindred.... argue with scripture
and understand literally otherwise God is a lier...

putting something that is not there is using human imagination gen 6:5

I dont know how much more of these nonsense responses I can handle.

deny that he disobeyed then ... . your soul on the line

Abraham did NOT disobey any direct command God gave him.

Unless you start interacting with the clear passages I have referenced I dont think I will have the energy to respond to you in the future.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

then why does heb 11:8-9 states the importance of odedience when works can not save you titus 3:5, 2 tim 1:9, eph 2:8-9, romans 4:5,

 

[grtcr]

Since my last thread went so off track without really discussing the main issue I decided to repost my main argument again and hopefully people will stay on topic.


The Bible clearly teaches Abraham heard the Gospel, had faith, and was justified as early as Genesis 12. Reading Gn 12 alone is sufficient proof Abraham was a believer in God and obeyed him, though further evidence like Gal 3:8 and Heb 11:8 drive the point home (those verses reference Gen 12).

Given that Protestants believe that Abraham was justified in Gen 15:6 (Rom 4:3), and that they believe justification is by imputation as a one time legal decree means there is a problem here. Abraham cannot have been justified at two different times if the above definition/understanding holds. This is precisely why Protestants say James 2:21 (Gen 22) cannot be using "justification" in the same sense as St Paul in Rom 4:3.

The only way around this "problem" is to realize that the Protestant understanding of justification is incorrect, while the Catholic understanding is orthodox.

I believe the Catholic argument here is so strong that it is the decisive "silver bullet" on the issue of Justification by Faith Alone. Faith Alone was the doctrine by which the Reformation stood or fell, if it was wrong the Reformation was wrong.


A lot of this debate hinges on what Gen 15:6 means, especially the phrase "credited as righteousness". This phrase is unique and only appears one other time, Ps 106:30-31.

James believed the same thing, but James was writing about a different subject. The subject of the Epistle of James is the character, conduct, and behav ior that should accompany saving faith. James is dealing with conduct and behavior that gives evidence of the reality of our faith. He was writing about the credi bility of a person's profession of this same Gospel. He simply says, "Don't claim to believe one way and then live in another way in opposition to what you claim." He was not dealing with the ground of a sinner's justifica tion before God and entitlement to life and glory. James was writing about whether or not a person who professed to believe the same Gospel that Paul preached truly believed it as evidenced by conduct and behavior as fruits and results of faith. So, as Paul was writing about the legal ground of a sinner's justification before God, James was writing about the declarative evidence of a sinner's justification before men. As Paul was dealing with the ground of salvation, James was dealing with the evidences of the reality of faith — that which proves to men that our profession of the Gospel is genuine, true saving faith and not just a mere profession. So James is writing about the character and the conduct of a true believer, not as the basis or ground of salvation, but as the evidence and fruit of salvation. The truth that Christ's righteousness alone secures and demands our entire salvation (even the work of the Holy Spirit in us), and entitles us to the whole inheritance of grace and glory, BEFORE we begin to obey and serve God, is just as true in the Epistle of James as it is true in all the epistles of Paul.

The theme of this epistle is simple — Saving faith will always be accompanied to some degree by Godly character, conduct, and behavior (obedience and good works), and where such Godly character, conduct, and behavior is totally absent, that faith is a mere profession and not genuine, saving faith. We might compare the apostle Paul's message and James's message with the following — Paul's message could be stated like this — Works without faith are dead. All who are in a state of condemnation, guilt, and defilement, all who owe a debt to God's law and justice, all who are void of a righteousness, their works are dead works, fruit unto death, works of iniquity, evil deeds, as they are all the fruit and result of self-righteousness (ex., Rom. 7:4-6). Paul stated very clearly that before sinners can do anything good in the sight of God, they must be totally cleared from the guilt and defilement of sin, and they must be completely entitled to all of salvation. The ground of this work is the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ. The works of the sinner before or after salvation are totally excluded here.

James's message could be stated like this — Faith without works is dead — "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (James 2:20). This is reinforced throughout the epistle (cp. James 1:22; 3:13). We become acutely aware in this epistle that there are different kinds of faith. The faith of God's elect is that which knows, believes, and lives by the Gospel, which James call the "perfect law of liberty"— God's promise to save sinners, freely give them all the benefits and blessings of eternal life and glory, and entitle them to all of salvation based on the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ freely imputed and received by faith. This faith, if it is genuine saving faith, is always accompanied to some degree by good works. However, there is a kind of faith that claims to believe this Gospel but which is not accompanied by good works. This kind of faith, being alone, James writes, is dead and worthless (James 2:17). This kind of faith does not save anyone (James 2:14).
The Apostle Paul agreed with James in this matter (Gal. 5:6; Eph. 2:10; 4:1; 5:1-2; 2 Tim. 3:16-17; Titus 1:16; 2:7,14). So both James and Paul would agree that no sinner can be saved or entitled to any part of salvation based on his best works, but that all who are saved by God's grace in Christ Jesus, are fully entitled to all of salvation based on Christ's righteousness alone before they do any good works. However, all who believe will evidence this to some degree with the fruit of good works. So, where there are no good works as evidence, there is no genuine saving faith. The intent of the Epistle of James, then, is to show plainly how the Gospel and the doctrines of God are directly related to every-day life.

First, we need to show how justification before God is not attained, because the Bible shows this first. The Bible is clear and adamant that in the matter of the justification of a sinner before God, our works and efforts to keep the law, deeds of law, anything proceeding from our personal character and conduct, even the work of the Holy Spirit in us, must be totally excluded from the ground of justification (Rom. 3:19-20). The work of the Holy Spirit in a person is as necessary in salvation as the work of Christ for a person but not for the same reason. The work of Christ for sinners is the only ground of justification. The work of the Holy Spirit in sinners is the fruit and effect of the work of Christ for sinners. This is very important if we are to have right views of salvation and of how God is glorified, Christ is exalted, and all boasting is excluded in redeemed, converted sinners.

The Bible tells us that God justifies the ungodly (Rom. 4:5). How could He justify the ungodly based on things proceeding from their character and conduct? If they are ungodly, then everything proceeding from their character and conduct is ungodly. The Bible reveals that before salvation, all of us by nature are guilty, defiled, condemned, ungodly sinners (Rom. 3:10-18) who are in need of a righteousness we cannot produce. The Bible reveals that God has chosen a people out of Adam's fallen race before the foundation of the world, and He has promised to save them and give them all the blessings of eternal life and glory. But God could not give them the first blessing apart from His holy law and inflexible justice being satisfied. God is holy! Therefore if any of us are to be saved, we need a substitute, a mediator, a surety, a representative. We need a divine substitute who can do for us what we cannot do for ourselves -- produce a righteousness that answers the demands of God's holy law and justice.

The Bible reveals that God's love provided in the Person of His beloved Son what His holiness demanded. In order for Him to be glorified, to be just and the Justifier of the ungodly, God appointed His Son and conditioned all of the salvation of His people upon Christ. He sent Christ to fulfill those conditions by His obedience unto death to satisfy law and justice on their behalf and bring forth a righteousness that equals all the demands of the law. And on the basis of the death of Christ alone, His righteousness alone, the law and justice of God is perfectly satisfied (Rom. 3:21-25). As a result, all whom Christ represented in His obedience unto death must be released from the curse of the law and released from the requirements of that law as to the ground of salvation.

In the Gospel, God commands sinners to seek salvation and every part of it based on what Christ has accomplished by way of obedience and death (righteousness), and He forbids sinners to seek salvation or any part of it based on anything that proceeds from their character and conduct. God reveals that He can only be glorified in the salvation of sinners based on the righteousness of Christ freely imputed to them and received by God-given faith. He reveals that He cannot be glorified if salvation is conditioned on anything proceeding from the sinner's character and conduct, because that which proceeds from our character and conduct cannot satisfy the law's demands. It cannot satisfy God's holiness and justice. Therefore, to seek to be justified before God based on anything that proceeds from our personal character and conduct dishonors God, denies Christ and His blood and righteousness, and keeps sinners in a state of bondage and cursedness (Gal. 2:21; 5:2-4). We must conclude, according to God's revelation in the promise of the Gospel, and according to God's holy law and justice, that the only ground of the justification of a sinner before God is the righteousness of Christ freely imputed and received by God-given faith (Rom. 4:6-8; 5:18-21; 2 Cor. 5:21). Sinners who come to God seeking salvation upon any other ground, even if they attribute it to God or a work of the Holy Spirit, shall be damned (Matt. 5:20; Luke 18:9-14; Rom. 9:32--10:3).

This one ground of justification is revealed in the preaching of the Gospel (Rom. 1:16-17). When a sinner hears and believes this Gospel savingly, he/she will see the futility and wickedness of seeking salvation based on any other ground. This brings true repentance from dead works and idolatry. When we see the holiness of God in light of these blessed truths of Christ and the righteousness He established by His obedience unto death, we also see that all of our efforts to be saved based on any other ground were dead works, evil deeds, and fruit unto death (Phil. 3:7-10). We then become ashamed of ever thinking in our self-righteousness and pride that God could have saved us or blessed us based on anything proceeding from our character and conduct. Consider how highly a person must exalt themselves and their works to think that a holy and righteous God could save them or bless them based on anything other than the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Ormly]

The Bible clearly teaches Abraham heard the Gospel, had faith, and was justified as early as Genesis 12. Reading Gn 12 alone is sufficient proof Abraham was a believer in God and obeyed him, though further evidence like Gal 3:8 and Heb 11:8 drive the point home (those verses reference Gen 12).

The above sequence of events is wrong.

The Bible clearly states that Abraham had faith. On that account God chose him. God never chooses anyone who doesn't initially have faith in Him. It is only after God chooses him and deals with him through his life's choices, whereby Abraham is rectified, does God reveal the plan for His Family of "many sons brought into glory"..

If distinctions can be made and it all can be viewed in that light, perspectives will change.

 

[zeke37]

I have not read the whole thread ye...but has anyone mentioned the real special priest that Abe met and tythed to and was blessed by?

I think he was justified then

 

[A Brother In Christ]

No he was not not saved yet... thus the reason for Gen 22:10 being in james 2:22 , heb 11:17-19

 

[Catholic Dude]

then why does heb 11:8-9 states the importance of odedience when works can not save you titus 3:5, 2 tim 1:9, eph 2:8-9, romans 4:5,

Abraham had what Paul called "faith working through love" (Gal 5:6).

You are putting obedience against faith, when they actually are inseparable. Heb 11:6 DEFINES faith in its essence, you must believe God exists and that He rewards those who seek Him.

The above sequence of events is wrong.

The Bible clearly states that Abraham had faith. On that account God chose him. God never chooses anyone who doesn't initially have faith in Him. It is only after God chooses him and deals with him through his life's choices, whereby Abraham is rectified, does God reveal the plan for His Family of "many sons brought into glory"..

If distinctions can be made and it all can be viewed in that light, perspectives will change.

What perspectives will change? All your claim leads to is a situation where Abraham believed in and pleased God all that time yet was never justified, that is absurd. Further if it was that hard for Abraham to be justified, imagine how hard it must be for us.

I have not read the whole thread ye...but has anyone mentioned the real special priest that Abe met and tythed to and was blessed by?

I think he was justified then

Very true. The priest was Melchizedec and he DID bless Abraham. It would be very interesting to bless someone who was never justified.