Abraham in old Paradise, Jonah and in the Earth's Depths, they show themselves no mercy.

[David Lamb]

Satan is as scripture says, a liar, an accuser, independent from God's will. So he resorts to legal righteousness. He does what he can get away with, as when tempting Eve. No direct attack. Jesus victory over Satan comes in parts, His death and resurrection and His second coming, and then using the angels Satan is finally locked up for good. The Jewish idea is that Satan is God's tool and not outside His will.

In Hell, Satan can only have people that left God's hand, or rejected God. And not just fire, but Satan likes to torment people, as in their NDEs. "I can't believe you fell for it." Laughing. Howard Storm was pulled apart by psychopaths and sensed he was in turn, being converted into one of them. But then he prayed. So Satan under superior power is a legalist and puts on the show of being a judge. He is proud and outraged and puts on an act. He seems to judge.

Yes, Satan puts on a show of all sorts of things, but he isn't those things. When he tried to tempt the Lord Jesus Christ in the wilderness, he put on a show of having great authority:

“Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."” (Mt 4:8-9 NKJV)

He put on a show of having the authority to give all the kingdoms of the world to Christ. In reality, he had no such authority.

Similarly with the matter we are discussing. He might try to convince us that he rules hell, but he doesn't.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Yes, Satan puts on a show of all sorts of things, but he isn't those things. When he tried to tempt the Lord Jesus Christ in the wilderness, he put on a show of having great authority:

“Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."” (Mt 4:8-9 NKJV)

He put on a show of having the authority to give all the kingdoms of the world to Christ. In reality, he had no such authority.

Similarly with the matter we are discussing. He might try to convince us that he rules hell, but he doesn't.

Satan held the authority over those kingdoms until Jesus died for them and rose from the grave. Resisting bowing was the first part of the cross victory. Satan has lost some of his grip, and the Bible has a description of him being in a rage knowing his time is short. Revelations 12:7-12. Also, He kills to two witnesses. God raises them three days later.

I think The fallen angels are a disciplined and well ruled Kingdom as Jesus says, he is not divided against himself, to drive out demons for Jews. Luke 11:14-23. The rebellious spirits move between Hell, Earth and second Heaven, and the Bible mentions the accuser being thrown out from Heaven. Revelation 12:7-12. Satan has much less power and his bests are his many types of wisdom, memory, logic, music...,... and he is patient, he can wait with his bait for centuries. I think he wisely rules the fallen angelic kingdom with precision. Their sum total and particularly he Bible mentions in Genesis 3:15 that Jesus would strike the head. And depending on the translation, several times.

 

[David Lamb]

Satan held the authority over those kingdoms until Jesus died for them and rose from the grave. Resisting bowing was the first part of the cross victory. Satan has lost some of his grip, and the Bible has a description of him being in a rage knowing his time is short. Also, He kills to two witnesses. God raises them three days later.

I think The fallen angels are a disciplined and well ruled Kingdom as Jesus says, he is not divided against himself, to drive out demons for Jews. The rebellious spirits move between Hell, Earth and second Heaven, and the Bible mentions the accuser being thrown out from Heaven. Satan has much less power and a strength is many types of wisdom, memory, logic, music...,... and he is patient, he can wait with his bait for centuries. I think he wisely rules the fallen angelic kingdom with precision. Their sum total and particularly he Bible mentions in Genesis 3:15 that Jesus would strike the head. And depending on the translation, several times.

I disagree that Satan of himself held authority over the kingdoms of the world. He certainly does have a certain amount of power, and Jesus calls him "the ruler of this world" in John 14:30. But his power is nowhere near as great as God's, and the idea he put to Christ in the temptation was that he, Satan, had the authority to give all the world's kingdoms to the Saviour. He had no such authority. Incidentally, who are the two witnesses Satan killed, who were raised three days later by God? If you say one of them was Jesus, Satan didn't kill Jesus. Jesus said:

“"Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."” (Joh 10:17-18 NKJV)

Satan didn't kill Jesus. Who was the second of the two witnesses you mention?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I disagree that Satan of himself held authority over the kingdoms of the world. He certainly does have a certain amount of power, and Jesus calls him "the ruler of this world" in John 14:30. But his power is nowhere near as great as God's, and the idea he put to Christ in the temptation was that he, Satan, had the authority to give all the world's kingdoms to the Saviour. He had no such authority. Incidentally, who are the two witnesses Satan killed, who were raised three days later by God? If you say one of them was Jesus, Satan didn't kill Jesus. Jesus said:

“"Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."” (Joh 10:17-18 NKJV)

Satan didn't kill Jesus. Who was the second of the two witnesses you mention?

The Bible says it is appointed for men to die once. Enoch and Elijah never died, and extraordinary people are Moses, Ezekiel and perhaps Mary, Jesus' mother.

Which beings were the authorities and powers behind Babylon, Greece and Rome until Jesus?

Back to my OP, why did Jonah say, that those that lift themselves up to lying vanities, show themselves no mercy? Surely not Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Lazarus Jesus' disciple...?

 

[David Lamb]

The Bible says it is appointed for men to die once. Enoch and Elijah never died, and extraordinary people are Moses, Ezekiel and perhaps Mary, Jesus' mother.

That is true, except for Mary. The bible does not teach that she didn't die.

Which beings were the authorities and powers behind Babylon, Greece and Rome until Jesus?

Back to my OP, why did Jonah say, that those that lift themselves up to lying vanities, show themselves no mercy? Surely not Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Lazarus Jesus' disciple...?

Sorry, I have just read through Jonah, and I cannot find anything like, "those that lift themselves up to lying vanities, show themselves no mercy." I wonder what bible passage you were thinking of.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

That is true, except for Mary. The bible does not teach that she didn't die.

Sorry, I have just read through Jonah, and I cannot find anything like, "those that lift themselves up to lying vanities, show themselves no mercy." I wonder what bible passage you were thinking of.

Jonah ch 2:8 KJV.

 

[David Lamb]

Jonah ch 2:8 KJV.

Thanks. Yes, I was looking at the NKJV, which says:

“"Those who regard worthless idols Forsake their own Mercy.” (Jon 2:8 NKJV)

The KJV has:

“They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.” (Jon 2:8 AV)

Your quote was different to both of those:

"those that lift themselves up to lying vanities, show themselves no mercy."

Jonah in that passage was talking about his fellow Jews, in my opinion, not the Ninevites (he had yet to arrive at Nineveh). He was saying that God had shown them mercy, but they had forsaken Him in favour of idols.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Thanks. Yes, I was looking at the NKJV, which says:

“"Those who regard worthless idols Forsake their own Mercy.” (Jon 2:8 NKJV)

The KJV has:

“They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.” (Jon 2:8 AV)

Your quote was different to both of those:

"those that lift themselves up to lying vanities, show themselves no mercy."

Jonah in that passage was talking about his fellow Jews, in my opinion, not the Ninevites (he had yet to arrive at Nineveh). He was saying that God had shown them mercy, but they had forsaken Him in favour of idols.

There are many translations, NLT says:
8Those who worship false gods

turn their backs on all God’s mercies.

I think of the context of Jonah in the Pit, at the base of the mountains, that he was prophesying about the Messiah and the damned people had to worship the evil spirits there, and it was bitter and they would not show themselves mercy.

Psalm 40:4 is similar:
4Blessed is that man who makes the Lord his trust,
And does not respect the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
At that time Israel didn't have much idolatry. I think the lies would have been literal interpretations of the writings of Moses, and they sought to accuse King David in the Psalm's discourse.

As you quoted from the Gospel, Satan wanted to be worshipped. That is why he fell from grace in the first place.

 

[David Lamb]

There are many translations,

Yes there are, but you said you were quoting from the KJV.

NLT says:
8Those who worship false gods

turn their backs on all God’s mercies.

I think of the context of Jonah in the Pit, at the base of the mountains, that he was prophesying about the Messiah and the damned people had to worship the evil spirits there, and it was bitter and they would not show themselves mercy.

Jonah was in the great fish when he prayed the words:

“I went down to the moorings of the mountains; The earth with its bars [closed] behind me forever; Yet You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD, my God.” (Jon 2:6 NKJV)

When he then spoke in v8 about those who worship idols forsaking mercy, he surely was talking about living, human idol-worshippers.

Psalm 40:4 is similar:
4Blessed is that man who makes the Lord his trust,
And does not respect the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
At that time Israel didn't have much idolatry. I think the lies would have been literal interpretations of the writings of Moses, and they sought to accuse King David in the Psalm's discourse.

As you quoted from the Gospel, Satan wanted to be worshipped. That is why he fell from grace in the first place.

Yes, I agree with what you say about the fall of Satan.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Yes there are, but you said you were quoting from the KJV.

Jonah was in the great fish when he prayed the words:

“I went down to the moorings of the mountains; The earth with its bars [closed] behind me forever; Yet You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD, my God.” (Jon 2:6 NKJV)

When he then spoke in v8 about those who worship idols forsaking mercy, he surely was talking about living, human idol-worshippers.

Yes, I agree with what you say about the fall of Satan.

Jonah was originally sent to prepare the Ninevites to receive some of the Hebrews as exiles.

I think this is a messianic prophecy and is about Jesus' descent and rise from the Pit. That is why Jesus refers to it in the Gospel.

 

[David Lamb]

Jonah was originally sent to prepare the Ninevites to receive some of the Hebrews as exiles.

Where do you find that? God's command to Jonah is found at the very beginning of the Book of Jonah:

“Now the word of the LORD came to Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry out against it; for their wickedness has come up before Me."” (Jon 1:1-2 NKJV)

Nothing there about receiving Hebrews as exiles.

I think this is a messianic prophecy and is about Jesus' descent and rise from the Pit. That is why Jesus refers to it in the Gospel.

Yes, Jesus referred to Jonah being in the great fish, and used it to illustrate His own death:

“"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” (Mt 12:40 NKJV)

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Where do you find that? God's command to Jonah is found at the very beginning of the Book of Jonah:

“Now the word of the LORD came to Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry out against it; for their wickedness has come up before Me."” (Jon 1:1-2 NKJV)

Nothing there about receiving Hebrews as exiles.

Yes, Jesus referred to Jonah being in the great fish, and used it to illustrate His own death:

“"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” (Mt 12:40 NKJV)

I do not follow a strict "science" of Sola Scriptura, and I follow the Nicene and Apostles' creeds, and I do not submit to all the ancient basis Catholic teachings, of the Popes, Bishop Augustine of Hippo... I see something in Origen, and mostly NDE accounts that can be well checked, persuade me to interpret scripture differently. So Ian McCormack and Howard Storm, and others I can name, and my belief is, Jesus preached to the damned in Hell. He was strong and light, and the power of the resurrection was new, and Jesus plundered Hell of all and they were saved.
Ian McCormack
Howard Storm – New Book 'Following Jesus' Available Now

 

[David Lamb]

I do not follow a strict "science" of Sola Scriptura, and I follow the Nicene and Apostles' creeds, and I do not submit to all the ancient basis Catholic teachings, of the Popes, Bishop Augustine of Hippo... I see something in Origen, and mostly NDE accounts that can be well checked, persuade me to interpret scripture differently. So Ian McCormack and Howard Storm, and others I can name, and my belief is, Jesus preached to the damned in Hell. He was strong and light, and the power of the resurrection was new, and Jesus plundered Hell of all and they were saved.

So are you saying that you believe Jonah was originally sent to prepare the Ninevites to receive some of the Hebrews as exiles because someone reported it after a near death experience?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

So are you saying that you believe Jonah was originally sent to prepare the Ninevites to receive some of the Hebrews as exiles because someone reported it after a near death experience?

No, sorry if I was unclear. Someone taught me Jonah's mission was ahead of a time of exile and God was preparing Ninevah for the sake of the Hebrews.

I interpret Jonah 2 as a Messianic prophecy, likes Psalms. Example Psalm 22. Partly David, and partly the Messiah. Here, partly Jonah, partly Jesus, and because of NDEs, I interpret scripture influenced by testimonies.

Before I learned all the church's teachings, I read the Bible, and always thought Jonah 2 was about Jesus, and wondered what people not showing themselves mercy meant. And Ian McCormack's NDE and subsequent teachings leads me to think, against church teachings, that Jesus plundered and saved those in gloomy dungeons so now they live.

 

[David Lamb]

No, sorry if I was unclear. Someone taught me Jonah's mission was ahead of a time of exile and God was preparing Ninevah for the sake of the Hebrews.

Probably my fault for misunderstanding you. I wonder what biblical basis the person who taught you this had.

I interpret Jonah 2 as a Messianic prophecy, likes Psalms. Example Psalm 22. Partly David, and partly the Messiah. Here, partly Jonah, partly Jesus, and because of NDEs, I interpret scripture influenced by testimonies.

I see Jonah being in the great fish for three days and nights more as a "type" or foreshadowing of Christ's death. I would say it is better to interpret NDEs influenced by Scripture, not the other way round.

Before I learned all the church's teachings, I read the Bible, and always thought Jonah 2 was about Jesus, and wondered what people not showing themselves mercy meant. And Ian McCormack's NDE and subsequent teachings leads me to think, against church teachings, that Jesus plundered and saved those in gloomy dungeons so now they live.

I think it is referring to those of Jonah's fellow Jews who had turned from the true God, Who had shown them mercy on countless occasions, to worship Baal and other false deities.