About Sabbath

pasifika said:

If God commandments can be kept and followed by man then what is the point of Gods Son coming down here instead of just stay up there because man can follow All the commandments God gave and be Righteous?

what is your reasoning? God gave commandments to man because they can follow them? Or to show they cannot?

Click to expand...

I do not think God would ask us to do something we cannot do. All things are possible with God. Mathew 19:26

From this reasoning is it too hard to keep all the commandment so why try or just the 4th commandment?

Jesus came to save us from sin. He did not come so it would be okay to continue to sin. Jesus promises us the Holy Spirit to help us obey, not to continue sinning. John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Apparently there are some who continues to keep God's commandments so I think it's what we should all strive for!

Revelations 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

imge said:

I do not think God would ask us to do something we cannot do. All things are possible with God. Mathew 19:26

From this reasoning is it too hard to keep all the commandment so why try or just the 4th commandment?

Jesus came to save us from sin. He did not come so it would be okay to continue to sin. Jesus promises us the Holy Spirit to help us obey, not to continue sinning. John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Apparently there are some who continues to keep God's commandments so I think it's what we should all strive for!

Revelations 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Click to expand...

What do you believe it means to “keep” His commandments? Do you believe that you have perfectly obeyed all 10 commandments? Do you believe that you now live a sinless, absolute perfect life (exactly as Jesus lived) 100% of the time?

Danthemailman said:

What do you believe it means to “keep” His commandments? Do you believe that you have perfectly obeyed all 10 commandments? Do you believe that you now live a sinless, absolute perfect life (exactly as Jesus lived) 100% of the time?

Click to expand...

Romans 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Jesus came to condemn sin in His perfect life in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us.

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" (Philippians 4:13).

imge said:

Romans 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Jesus came to condemn sin in His perfect life in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us.

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" (Philippians 4:13).

Click to expand...

So that’s a resounding YES? You have perfectly obeyed all 10 commandments and now live a sinless, absolute perfect life (exactly as Jesus lived) 100% of the time?

BobRyan said:

Is it your view then - that it is outright dangerous/risky/wrong for someone who is not a scholar to read the Bible and judge right-from-wrong by it - when it comes to doctrine?

If so how then do they judge an Apostle as in Acts 17:11

Acts 17:11 "they studied he scriptures daily to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were SO"

===========================

If so how then do they judge an Apostle or even an Angel from heaves as in Gal 1:6-9??

Gal 1:6-9

6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel, 7 which is not just another account; but there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we (Apostles), or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, even now I say again: if anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

===========================

If so - how would they do as Christ did in Matt 7 and slam-hammer established church tradition sola-scriptura as seen in Mark 7 when it comes to the one true nation-church established by God at Sinai?

Mark 7:6-13

6 But He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,

But their heart is far away from Me.

7 And in vain do they worship Me,

Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”

9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Click to expand...

Without the Apostle they would’ve never discerned the truth on their own-so it’s necessarily a two-way street. And that’s the real point. Reading Scripture is quite beneficial. It’s one place where we hear and meet God. But to discern His will fully in all things pertaining to the gospel is another matter; just look at the produce of the doctrine of Sola Scripture with the variety of beliefs that result to see how reliable that course of action is on its own. We need the input of the true Apostle; then correct enlightenment of Scripture will come, then Scripture has valid content to compare and analyze it with.

The point is that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is bankrupt. We also need God’s church that He established, with His disciples teaching His gospel, in order to have the gospel rendered correctly to us. That gospel was received and proclaimed before a word of the New Testament was written. Now, of course, the SDA church is completely opposed to the notion that the Catholic church might be that church, seeing themselves exclusively as understanding and restoring correct teachings nowadays (as many other groups before and after have claimed as well, of course, with their own unique teachings), as if God left us mainly high and dry without the gospel for centuries before they came along. And they made hatred of Catholicism a major raison d'etre of the SDA church in the process, teaching that the Catholic church is the harlot of Babylon and the pope the antichrist, etc, all nonsense bogus and hysterical stuff but, hey, everyone likes to see their own role as critically important, right? And it’s good clean fun to have a dragon or two around to slay-even if the gospel truth ends up subverted in the process.

But the Seventh Day Adventist Church shares the same roots with the Jehovah’s Witnesses and certain other adventist groups that sprang up during the mid 19th century, all obsessed with the end times. When Jesus didn’t return physically according to their dating, early SDA founders backstepped to an alternative belief that He did make a move, but that it involved a shift in His position in heaven, not a literal return to earth. Some others would adopt that position later. Then the idea that the commandment regarding sabbath was compromised by the big bad Catholic Church, having all kinds of malice and evil intentions including maybe even teaching sun worship (which has no supporting evidence whatsoever as nothing like it was ever taught) and in any case changing the sabbath commandment in order to demonstrate authority, while the truth is that the nascent, persecuted early church in both the east and the west simply favored Sunday as it was the day of the Resurrection, Christ’s triumph over sin and death, and the day when they gathered and partook of His body and blood. At some point the SDAs began following Ellen, a false prophetess who claimed to have extra-biblical revelations: visons, etc, that supported the newly forming church’s positions. And while the teachings themselves are very different, SDAs share a reliance on extrabiblical private revelations with Mormons, another 19th century group that exclusively “had it right” and similarly saw itself as restoring true Christianity.

But, ironically, many basic SDA tenets are the same as those of the Catholic -and Eastern- churches while many other Protestant groups and Sola Scriptura adherents including JWs diverge farther away from many of those same core historical church teachings. SDAs rightly hold to the doctrine of the Trinity (including the deity of Jesus, of course) and of original sin, reject OSAS, and teach the necessity of obedience of the ten commandments, a teaching that the early church held and continues to hold while disregarding other moral laws of the Old Covenant along with its ceremonial laws.

Either way, the SDAs ended up with a decent church with a lot of nice and faithful people (some personal friends I’ve noticed are particularly zealous as new converts) with not too many skeletons in its closet for the most part. The “gimmick” with which they seek to set themselves apart from the crowd is their adherence to seventh day rest and worship, despite the widespread preference by God’s church for the 1st day (Jesus doesn’t dance to anyone else’s tune, as it should be). Their obsession with end-times theology and related preference for hating Catholicism are other distinguishing hallmarks. In any case the foundations of the SDA church’s origins are very human: ignorance coupled with a desire to stand out from the rest, a desire that stems from human pride. It results in a zeal having something more in common with Saul’s legalism than Paul’s teachings IMO.

imge said:

The Church also admits there was NO scripture authority to change God’s Sabbath day. They also admit it’s a commandment of the Catholic Church, not a commandment of God.

Click to expand...

The church commands nothing unless it believes it to be a commandment of God. The Catholic and EO church have certainly, from the beginning, been as acutely aware of biblical teachings including the Mosaic law as anyone else who came along later and studied the bible. And yet that didn't affect their views regarding sabbath.

fhansen said:

The church commands nothing unless it believes it to be a commandment of God. The Catholic and EO church have certainly, from the beginning, been as acutely aware of biblical teachings including the Mosaic law as anyone else who came along later and studied the bible. And yet that didn't affect their views regarding sabbath.

Click to expand...

Hi there,

I think this is a more recent view, but it’s not what the Catholic Church teaches. They admit there is no biblical authority to change God’s holy Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday. So no this change did not come from God, but its a commandment of the Catholic Church and they are not above our Savior.


Just a few references.....there are many more I can provide if interested.

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

Protestants ... accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change... But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that ... in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope.
—Our Sunday Visitor, February 5th, 1950.

Q. Have you any other proofs that they(Protestants) are not guided by the Scripture?

A. Yes; so many, that we cannot admit more than a mere specimen into this small work. They reject much that is clearly contained in Scripture, and profess more that is nowhere discoverable in that Divine Book.

Q. Give some examples of both?

A. They should, if the Scripture were their only rule, wash the feet of one another, according to the command of Christ, in the 13th chap. of St. John; —they should keep, not the Sunday, but the Saturday, according to the commandment, "Remember thou keep holy the Sabbath-day;" for this commandment has not, in Scripture, been changed or abrogated;...
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 101 Imprimatuer


Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?

A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the Seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174


Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
—Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

Q. Must not a sensible Protestant doubt seriously, when he finds that even the Bible is not followed as a rule by his co-religionists?

A. Surely, when he sees them baptize infants, abrogate the Jewish Sabbath, and observe Sunday for which [pg. 7] there is no Scriptural authority; when he finds them neglect to wash one another's feet, which is expressly commanded, and eat blood and things strangled, which are expressly prohibited in Scripture. He must doubt, if he think at all. ...

Q. Should not the Protestant doubt when he finds that he himself holds tradition as a guide?

A. Yes, if he would but reflect that he has nothing but Catholic Tradition for keeping the Sunday holy; ...
—Controversial Catechism by Stephen Keenan, New Edition, revised by Rev. George Cormack, published in London by Burns & Oates, Limited - New York, Cincinnati, Chicago: Benzinger Brothers, 1896, pages 6, 7.

The Sabbath was never a day about worship, it was a day about rest.

Worshiping God on Saturday or Sunday has nothing to do with the Sabbath even if some want to make it such.

imge said:

I think this is a more recent view, but it’s not what the Catholic Church teaches. They admit there is no biblical authority to change God’s holy Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday. So no this change did not come from God, but its a commandment of the Catholic Church and they are not above our Savior.

Click to expand...

It appears that you're not quite understanding the concept though. I said that "The church commands nothing unless it believes it to be a commandment of God." What difference should it possibly make whether or not that commandment is expressly stated in the bible, since the bible, itself, tells us that many things were not written-and to hold on to both oral and written teachings.

None of this means that the Church doesn't have the authority, as needed, to at some point declare God's truths as, well...true, as it did at the Council of Nicaea, for example.

tall73 said:

This I agree with completely. The speaking was from Sinai--not the garden. And that is what I am referring to. The commandment was spoken by God at Sinai. But while relating the command He also related historical events, which the commandment commemorates:

Heb 4:4 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.”

The historical act of resting was in the past, and related by God in His own voice. The commemoration of it is the Sabbath command, given to Israel.

Hebrews references the original rest, of which the later commandment was a memorial.

However, some (including but not limited to Adventists) read into this reference to God's rest something else. They think that God not only rested after His creative works, but also gave the commandment to Adam in the garden. But that is not stated in the text.

What is stated in the text is that the Sabbath is introduced in Exodus 16, and is then commanded by God's own voice, and then memorialized in stone as part of the tables of the testimony. Exodus 31 relates that it is a sign with Israel, and references the tablet. So the sabbath is a commemoration of the historical event which is being referenced in Hebrews.

To put it another way, Adventists at times will say that Exodus is quoting from Genesis. Because Ellen White states so they also think Moses wrote the book of Genesis while in Midian, prior to these words being spoken (some others believe this as well, but not on the basis of holding to an inspired author, and not from a biblical statement that I am aware of).

I think that it is unlikely that Moses wrote Genesis before Sinai. More likely to me is that both Exodus and Genesis are referring to God's words, spoken at Sinai. In the case of Exodus that seems nearly inescapable, since Moses was commanded to write various things, and the words are a quote from God on the mountain. But the narrative of Genesis is carried on in Exodus, forming one work. And so they were probably both written after Sinai, and refer back to the same statement of God.

Related to that, I find it likely, as it happens in other instances in Genesis, that in the midst of the historical account in Genesis 2 an explanatory note is included for the assembly of Israel. In this explanatory note it reminds them that this historic rest is the basis for the later sign commanded to Israel, and then included in the covenant words at Sinai. It states God hallowed the seventh day. However, No description of a command is given in Genesis. And no description of someone keeping the command, or failing to keep the command is referenced until Exodus 16.

God referenced Israel violating His Sabbaths in the prophets. Yet we see no mention of people violating the Sabbaths at the time of the flood, when it is clear that they were turning from their Creator.


So while the sabbath references the historical event of resting in the garden, it is primarily the resting that is in view in Hebrews, rather than the commandment itself.

Heb 4:4 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.”

To explain it another way, my friend who enjoys photography gave me a photo from our wedding that turned out better than the professional photographer's photos (not that they were bad, this was just better).

Now we at times display that photo, and if anyone asks about it, we relate who took it, and of course, that it is from our wedding, though the dress is a bit of a giveaway on that point.

Now if I later bring up the wedding again in conversation, do they think I am talking about the photo because I talked about the wedding when discussing the photo? No, the photo was a commemoration of the event, that was special to us because it recalls that occasion, and also because it reminds us of our friend.

But the wedding was the crucial event itself, and is not limited to the commemoration of it. And the photo was given to us later, after the wedding, not at the time of the wedding itself.

What I am getting at is that Adventists often see God's rest described and think Adam keeping the commandment. Rather, what is described is the historical rest.

And it is that rest that we enter into. And it is not two rests being described in Hebrews. It is one. God rested from His works (of creation). We enter by faith into His rest which has been going on since creation, and we rest from our works.

Now it is a "sabbath" rest, a resting from our works. And it points back to the same rest as the seventh-day Sabbath. But the seventh-day Sabbath is a commemoration given at Sinai. Whereas this rest of salvation is entering into God's rest which is from the foundation of the world. We enter into His rest and rest from our works.

The author sees this offer to enter God's rest as something yet available in their day--an invitation to be accepted. And they are not to harden their hearts and refuse to enter in. The ultimate entering in is at the end of the journey, as with Israel, and they must endure to the end, which is what he is calling the listeners to do.

Heb 3:14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

Those who failed to enter came out of Egypt, started the journey, but did not continue in belief, and so did not enter in.

Heb 3:16 For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses?
Heb 3:17 And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient?

Yet the author points out that those hearing in his day (and us today), do enter in through faith, and belief.

Heb 4:2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.
Heb 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest


View attachment 298290

Click to expand...

You have not addressed the points made in the post you responded to.


The REST mention in Verse 3 is of the GOSPEL mention in verse 2

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

For He, God spake in a certain place, Mt Sinai. And this again HE SAYS. IN THIS AGAIN WHAT? IN this Again He speaks. WHAT DOES HE SPEAK? HE SPEAKS, of the Seventh Day IF they shall enter in my rest, the rest that is of the Gospel. THIS IS THE COMMANDMENT for the Sabbath ALL SAY IS NOT IN THE NEW TESTAMENT.

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this again, If they shall enter into my rest.


How does He speak it? As He did on Mt Sinai. As a Matter of fact, as a commandment for all who partake of His Rest which is the Gospel. There remaineth therefore a Sabbath Keeping to the people of God. For he that has entered into his rest, the rest in which is of the Gospel. He ALSO hath Ceased from his own works AS GOD did from His. (vs 9 and 10)

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a Sabbath Keeping to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

A few things NEED TO BE NOTED from verse 9. Two separate things are being mentioned. THE rest which is of the Gospel And a ceasing from work AS God did. HOW DO WE KNOW there are 2?

Because the word "ALSO" tells us there are two separate things being spoken of here. A rest which has been entered. And because of entering into that Rest we ALSO cease from our work as God did from His. How did God cease from working? He stop working. Did He enter into a Spiritual Rest? NO, He is always in that state He is God. HE CEASED FROM WORK, physical work. AS denotes a direct comparison. So we who have entered in the Rest which is of the Gospel, a rest which is Spiritual ALSO cease from our own work AS GOD DID from His. WE Stop our physical labor on the SEVENTH DAY AS HE DID and We keep the DAY holy through CHRIST through the rest which He offers that is of the Gospel.

And once again we are not a SDA, so.....

Hi Dan, might break this up my response to your long post into smaller posts so they are easier to understand and follow.

Danthemailman said:

In regards to Hebrews 4:9, Sabbatismos is only used once in the Bible and is properly translated "sabbath rest," yet in context in Hebrews 4, we can see the author of Hebrews is attaching to the sabbath a new and expanded meaning beyond that of sabbaton, which is otherwise used to denote the weekly sabbath day under the law.

Click to expand...

Simply no! This is not true. The literal Greek meaning of Sabbatismos is to Sabbath keeping or Sabbath observance. The literal Greek translations as shown already from multiple references include "a Sabbath keeping" (Greek Interlinear), σαββατίζω, to keep sabbath, Exod 16:30, al.), a keeping sabbath, a sabbath rest (Greek Lexicon of the New Testament by Abbott Smith), σαββατισμός Σαββᾰτ-ισμός, ὁ, "a keeping of days of rest" (Liddel/Scott/Jones Greek-English Lexicon), "a keeping of Sabbath; a Sabbath rest" (Strongs Lexicon; Also from the Strongs Concordence), "to keep sabbath" (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament by Thayer), "literally means a keeping of a sabbath or a keeping of days of rest" (W. E. Vines Greek Dictionary).

So the translations that use Sabbath keeping or Sabbath observance is just as correct agreeing with the original Greek and Aramaic as is Sabbath rest as resting on the Sabbath is how the Sabbath is kept. Whatever translation is used does not effect the context or translation of Hebrews 4:1-5 that shows that there are two rests being discussed. One of believing and following Gods' Word and the other which is Gods' rest defined in Hebrews 4:3-5 as the seventh day Sabbath from creation referring back to Genesis 2:1-3. The contexts of Hebrews 3:12-19 to Hebrews 4:1-12 showing that only those who believe and follow God's Word (the gospel) enter into Gods' seventh day Sabbath rest made available from creation for all mankind *Mark 2:27.

more to come...

Danthemailman said:

Had the writer of Hebrews wanted to indicate the 7th day sabbath, he would have used sabbaton, the standard word for sabbath. But he didn't. The whole context is about rest, so sabbatismos must be understood as "sabbath rest" in an expanded meaning beyond that of sabbaton, as WE Vine's correctly points out.
Sabbath rest (4520) (sabbatismos from sabbatízo = keep the Sabbath) literally means a keeping of a sabbath or a keeping of days of rest. It is used in this passage not in the literal sense (meaning to keep a specific day, the "Sabbath" day) but to describe a period of rest for God’s people which is modeled after and is a fulfillment of the traditional Sabbath.

SABBATISMOS a Sabbath-keeping, is used in Heb. 4:9, R.V., "a Sabbath rest," A.V. marg., "a keeping of a Sabbath" (akin to sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30, not in the N.T.); here the Sabbath-keeping is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law.

Click to expand...

Already shown above and elsewhere to you in the past what you highlighted is not in the Greek. You have highlighted Vines opinion on what he thinks the Greek word Sabbatisomos means (his personal interpretation) without highlighting what Vine says is the “literal meaning of Sabbatismos. Vine states in the section you left out that I will highlight believer what the literal Greek meaning is here..

W. E. VINE, GREEK DICTIONARY
Sabbath rest (4520) (sabbatismos from sabbatízo = keep the Sabbath) literally means a keeping of a sabbath or a keeping of days of rest.

(Note the rest of Vines comments is not the translation of the original Greek it is his opinion).

All you have provided here is Vines opinion on what he thinks it means. Vines opinion on what he thinks it means while ignoring to highlight the literal Greek meaning he also provides in the same reference show above. We are considering the literal Greek and Aramaic meanings as well as historical uses to the Septuagint and other Christian literature and non-Christian literature that show historical uses of Sabbatismos and the overwhelming evidence supports it meaning and use to “Sabbath keeping and Sabbath observance”.

more to come...

Danthemailman said:

Hebrews 4:10 says the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. That person has entered in God’s rest through Jesus "rests from his own work" (in contrast with law keeping) as God ceased or rested from His works in the seventh day of Creation. God's ultimate, true rest did not come through Joshua or Moses, but through Jesus Christ. Joshua led Israel into the promised land, which was merely the earthly rest which was but a shadow of what was involved in the heavenly rest. The rest in Christ that God offers is spiritual and is superior to that which Joshua obtained. Israel's earthly rest was filled with conflict and attacks from their enemies and the daily cycle of work. The "sabbatismos" rest enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly sabbath under the law, is found only in Christ and not Law keeping.

Click to expand...

The contexts from Hebrews 3:12-19 to Hebrews 4:1-5 as key here. These contexts define two rests in Hebrews 4:1-5 not one. The first is our rest that we receive as we believe and follow Gods’ Word (the gospel rest) *Hebrews 4:1-3 and the second rest discussed in Gods’ rest that is defines as the “seventh day” Sabbath from the foundation of the world in Hebrews 4:3-5 that those who believe and follow Gods’ Word enter into as they keep the Sabbath. The writer of Hebrews is not saying we no longer need to keep the Sabbath as a holy day of rest commanded by God in the 4th commandment in Exodus 20:8-11. He is stating that the Sabbath rest remains for the people of God. That is those who believe God’s Word (the gospel) enter into God’s rest by faith as they keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath is not separated from rest. Rest is how the Sabbath is kept through faith.

more to come...

Danthemailman said:

Although for centuries the Jews had found their physical rest in a day, the new covenant takes the focus off the shadows of the Old Testament signs and rituals and reveals their spiritual substance, the fulfillment/reality—in the person of Jesus Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17). Christians find "sabbatismos" rest in Christ's finished work on the cross through faith in His death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation, which is what it means to "believe" the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Rest for the Christian is entered into by ceasing from one’s "works" of trying to earn salvation though keeping the law, namely, "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works." (Galatians 1:6-9) Paul explains that the Jewish holy days, including the weekly sabbath, were merely a “shadow” which pointed to Christ; therefore, Christians should not feel obligated to observe them once the "reality" has come.

Click to expand...

Absolutely not, but allow me to explain why. The contexts of Colossians 2:16 is talking about the annual ceremonial sabbaths and days of holy convocations (also sabbaton in the Greek as they were days of no work and rest) in the Feast days not God’s 4th commandment being a shadow of things to come in Colossians 2:17 (happy to discuss this is detail, time permitting).

WHY IS IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD'S 4th COMMANDMENT TO BE A SHADOW LAW?

Very simply, God's 4th commandment points backwards not forwards to things to come or the body of Christ (Colossians 2:17). Let's see why?

Colossians 2:16-17 [16]Let no man therefore judge you in meat,6 or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:[17], Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The above scriptures are in reference to the shadow sabbaths in the annual Feast days that are fulfilled and continued in the body of Christ in the new covenant. In the old covenant there were many "shadow sabbaths" in the feast days and it is these that Colossians 2:16 are in reference to not God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken in the new covenant *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4.

These annual shadow sabbaths connected to the Feast days included; (1) Feast of Unleavened Bread (first and last day) *Leviticus 23:6-8 (2) Feast of Trumpets *Leviticus 23:24-25 (3) Day of Atonement *Leviticus 23:27-32 (4) Feast of Booths *Leviticus 23:34-36 (5) Feast of First Fruits *Leviticus 23:39 (6) Feast days of Holy convocation of no work (sabbaton Colossians 2:16 *Leviticus 23:7-8; 21;24; 27; 35-36. Unlike God's 4th commandment that is linked only to the "seventh day" of the week. These ceremonial sabbaths are linked directly to the Feast days and can fall on any day of the week depending on the yearly cycle.

It is impossible that Colossians 2:16 is in reference to God's 4th commandment as God's 4th commandment is a part of the "finished work of creation" *Genesis 2:1-3. It point backwards to the finished work of creation (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) not forwards to things to come (Colossians 2:17). There was no sin and no law and no plan of salvation for unfallen man when the Sabbath was made for mankind *Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3. Now notice something very important. God's 4th commandment does not point forward to things to come *Colossians 2:17 it points backward (Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy - Exodus 20:8). Gods 4th commandment points backwards because it is a memorial of the finished work of creation and the celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth...

Lets look at the commandment that points backward not forwards...

Exodus 20:8-11 [8], REMEMBER the SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> {Because it is a memorial looking back to the finished work of creation that JESUS made it a Holy day of rest for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day} [9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: [10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God {This is a direct reference from God's Word defining what the Sabbath is; The SABBATH = the SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK}: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY> [11], For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT. {Reference is backward not forward to Genesis 2:1-3}

Therefore, it is impossible for God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath to be a "shadow law" as all the "shadow laws" are laws to do with God's plan of salvation from sin after the fall of mankind from the Mosaic book of the law. God's Sabbath was created when there was no sin, no fall, no law and no plan of salvation because mankind was in perfect harmony with God. – So there is nothing there in reference to Gods’ 4th commandment not being a requirement for Christian living in the new testament.

.............

SUMMARY: We should believe the teachings of Jesus in Mathew 5:17-20 and Paul when he says in Hebrews 4:9 THEREFORE IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. Jesus did not come to abolish the law and the prophets he came to magnify them and make them honourable according to the prophecy of Isaiah (Isaiah 42:21; Matthew 5:17-28). According to Jesus unless we are born again into God’s new covenant promise to love we cannot enter into God’s kingdom because according to John those who are born again to walk in God’s Spirit do not practice sin (knowingly breaking God’s commandments) *Galatians 5:16; 1 John 3:6-9. Those who practice sin according to John do not know God according to 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6 who agrees with Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23 and we know that James tells us that if we knowingly break anyone of God’s 10 commandments in James 2:10-11 we stand guilty before God of sin. According to Paul in Hebrews 10:26-31 those who reject God’s Word in order to continue in known unrepentant sin are in danger of the judgement.

Hebrews 4:9 is in reference to “Sabbath keeping” or “Sabbath observance” that is left behind for all those who believe and follow Gods’ Word.

Hope this is helpful...

Sorry all,

I have been busy with work and have plenty more on the way. I am in God's Sabbath rest at the moment and feel Gods' presence and peace and rest that all who believe and follow Gods' Word enter into by faith.

HAPPY SABBATH REST ALL!

I am unable to spend as much time in CF as I would like at the moment so my time is limited but I will try and catch up when I can. If I cannot my apologies and thanks for your understanding.

God's blessing to all those who believe and follow God's Word!

LoveGodsWord said:

Sorry all,

I have been busy with work and have plenty more on the way. I am in God's Sabbath rest at the moment and feel Gods' presence and peace and rest that all who believe and follow Gods' Word enter into by faith.

HAPPY SABBATH REST ALL!

I am unable to spend as much time in CF as I would like at the moment so my time is limited but I will try and catch up when I can. If I cannot my apologies and thanks for your understanding.

God's blessing to all those who believe and follow God's Word!

Click to expand...

Thanks, May you have Happy Sabbath also!

HIM said:

Thanks, May you have Happy Sabbath also!

Click to expand...

For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. (Hebrews 4:4). I want to discuss this one a little more when we get some more time. Happy Sabbath

fhansen said:

It appears that you're not quite understanding the concept though. I said that "The church commands nothing unless it believes it to be a commandment of God." What difference should it possibly make whether or not that commandment is expressly stated in the bible, since the bible, itself, tells us that many things were not written-and to hold on to both oral and written teachings.

None of this means that the Church doesn't have the authority, as needed, to at some point declare God's truths as, well...true, as it did at the Council of Nicaea, for example.

Click to expand...

Those quotes from the Catholic Church tell you the change was not guided by God. There was no biblical authority to change one of God’s commandments, especially the day God said REMEMBER and deemed His holy day.

That’s the thing, you have to believe in God and the Bible or you believe the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church made too many changes to the Bible. The only Word we know for certain is from God are the 66 books of the Bible that was guided by the Holy Spirit. If we believe the Catholic Church has the authority to change God’s Word, than we might as well disregard the Holy Bible because the scriptures tells us not to change one Word. So do you believe God’s Word or the Church? I believe God’s Word and the warning from Jesus.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6 Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.


Mathew 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

imge said:

Those quotes from the Catholic Church tell you the change was not guided by God. There was no biblical authority to change one of God’s commandments, especially the day God said REMEMBER and deemed His holy day.

Click to expand...

Those quotes from the Catholic Church only reflect the understanding that the Church operates on God’s authority, in this case by simply recognizing that the 1st day observance, with a non-legalistic approach to the 7th day, was a divinely inspired practice of the church from day one. Anyone can come along centuries later and state that things didn’t happen that way, that the early church didn’t experience what she experienced, but they’d only be speculating.

And the Bible is vague on many things. This is because it was simply never intended to serve as some sort of clear and exhaustive, systematic catechism. Many beliefs and practices were received, unwritten, and initially carried in the hearts of early disciples and followers.

fhansen said:

Those quotes from the Catholic Church only reflect the understanding that the Church operates on God’s authority, in this case by simply recognizing that the 1st day observance, with a non-legalistic approach to the 7th day, was a divinely inspired practice of the church from day one. Anyone can come along centuries later and state that things didn’t happen that way, that the early church didn’t experience what she experienced, but they’d only be speculating.

Click to expand...

Well there was a change to God’s commandment and the Catholic Church takes credit for that change. The Bible tells us to not make changes, God’s Ten Commandments are an eternal covenant. Luke 16:17, Psalms 89:34, Psalms 111:7,8 I believe the Words of the Bible. God is unchanging. I do not believe the Holy Spirit gave a license to any church or person or institution to freely make changes to God’s Word. How confusing would it be to disregard so much from the Bible because it was changed outside of scripture. To me there would be no point of the Bible. Jesus told us to obey God and not commandments of man, so the only thing I know for certain is what is within the Holy Bible. God bless