About claiming scriptural authority...

[amariselle]

Agreed. I am not saying there is anything wrong with Scripture. I love them so! Yet, these Scripture's are life to me, not just words on a page. Anyone can read, "We live by faith". Until that is a personal experience in God's faith, they are but unlived words.

"Doctrine" is a bad word to me because of how it was taught to me. I'm sure that that is not your concern when you say "doctrine". It was taught to me finitely since my youth. But, my life became infinite beyond words. How does one explain an infinite when everyone wants a finite?

Yet, that word "doctrine" in 1 Timothy 4:16 is didoskalia(teaching) and means the didoskalia of a didoskalos(teacher). It in no wise is referring to the 'self-evident' truth that many claim their "doctrine" to be: Church Father or not!

To me, "doctrine" will always be nothing but a fork. The food is the spaghetti of God's Word to eat. Then why don't we eat instead of admiring our fork collection and argue about which fork is best?

Yes, the Bible is indeed far more than just words on a page.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Interesting, is that a quote from somewhere?

I quote myself. Sometimes it just comes out that way.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

some people do claim scriptural authority and that's not right.

there are then others who confront someone who has presented flawed theology and will present exegetical and hermeneutical evidence for their claim of someone being in error. there is nothing wrong with this and can serve to refine the understanding of all involved.

 

[PeaceB]

Did you know that though you consider doing so when confronted by the challenging theology of others pious, you actually undermine and falsify them by patronizing their faith and position.

This actually leads to the opposite of what you probably thought, you're helping the secularization of Christianity all together.

If theology falls into the fallpit where there's no room for challenges and/ or need for good reasons to uphold doctrine and normative theology without being ostracized, then in the end Christianity will end up as a private matter, a faith where everyone claim orthodoxy in their interpretation of scripture and no theology is open for discussion.

If all Christians saw theology this way then we'd face a completely privatised and secular, subjective religion.

The reason why this is the case?
If no-one's allowed to question any part of what constitutes your faith in God then the door into a fruitful theological discussion is forever closed.

So, to all you in here (and there are several of you) who seek to toss your own subjective interpretation of scripture on others and do your best to strangle discussion by claiming superior insight in scripture.

You end up in that ditch, you run the errand of the world, a world who seek to undermine Christianity and shatter the faithful and spreading them around, cut of the rest of the Christian world. The world wants to see Christianity torn apart and privatised to the level where even evangelizing people will be ilegalised.

Sola Scriptura with every man as interpreter can easily be the end of Christianity as a cultural and moral voice in a increasingly anti Christian world.

Here is what it comes down to for many of these folks: pride. The idea that they should be under the spiritual authority or guidance of another is offensive to them. They say that our Lord Jesus is their authority. They say that Sacred Scripture is their authority. But they will never once say that a church or a pastor is their authority, because putting themselves under the authority of a church or a pastor does not allow them to be in control and to believe anything and everything that they want to believe, all the while claiming to be guided by the Holy Sprit as a pretense.

 

[amariselle]

25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.

26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. - Matthew 20:25-28

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. - Matthew 23:8-12

We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. Church leadership and structure (as Paul writes about in his epistles) is one thing. Elevating one person or a group of people far above others and creating some sort of hierarchy is another.

It is not "pride" that rejects such things, it is, rather, humble acknowledgement of and obedience to the word of God. We should definitely encourage one another and be willing to learn from one another, we should not, however, be subjected to one another or put ourselves or others up on some sort of spiritual pedestal.

And all true believers do in fact have the Holy Spirit Who instructs and guides. That is not "a pretense", nor is it anyone's place to say it is.

 

[redleghunter]

Sola Scriptura with every man as interpreter can easily be the end of Christianity as a cultural and moral voice in a increasingly anti Christian world.

Interesting you mention this. Christianity Today (an Evangelical publication) published an interview with a NT scholar from Notre Dame university. He elaborated a bit more on your quoted statement and I think for a Catholic theologian gave a very balanced assessment.

The Freedom and Chaos of Sola Scriptura

One thing to consider for your OP is many who post for or against Sola Scriptura usually have a modern view which is actually what I call "solo meo."

The Reformers did not disparage the teaching office, nor did they toss out councils and synods. For example, the Westminster Confession is a good source to review the definition of Sola Scriptura.

Westminster Confession of Faith

 

[Mountainmike]

We have never stopped a person from coming to Christ.
.

Have you not? Had you considered that the squabble on doctrine makes Christianity so unappealing , nobody would want to come? And that I think is Stabats point. I think The nature of the confrontation stops people from coming to Christ.

Our Lord said that by this we will be known , " that you love one another" . Hard to find in many of the caustic debates.

The sheer number of threads started with the very purpose of kicking Catholicism shows mal intent on the part of the authors - when they state their own interpretation is right to exclusion of all others -they should show more humility. Engage in good humoured debate. They think they are right, they cannot know. And the fact they often oppose all that the early fathers including those who chose the canon and creed believed, should give them reason to pause for thought.

The same folk ritually dump the Same anticatholic myth playbook into threads. Like " call no man father" - which proves they have not studied scripture let alone Catholicism! How does it help? Who does it help? It certainly does not help Christianity, or bring more to Christ.

 

[ripple the car]

Years ago, a poster on CAF who was *not* Catholic or perhaps not yet Catholic, made the following observation; if everyone did not hate and malign the Catholic Church so, it would not be Christ's true Church.

That thought stayed with me.

 

[Rescued One]

Have you not? Had you considered that the squabble on doctrine makes Christianity so unappealing , nobody would want to come? And that I think is Stabats point.

Our Lord said that by this we will be known , " that you love one another" . Hard to find in many of the caustic debates.

The sheer number of threads started with the very purpose of kicking Catholicism shows mal intent on the part of the authors - when they state their own interpretation is right to exclusion of all others -they should show more humility. Engage in good humoured debate.

God explains that the reason there are ones who won't believe, is because they are not His sheep. We are all aware that in the end, there will be sheep on the right and goats on the left.

John 10
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Christians obey because they love the Lord. I haven't started a single thread criticizing Catholics. Those who love God will read their Bibles to know His will.

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

All glory to our Holy Trinity!

 

[Rescued One]

Years ago, a poster on CAF who was *not* Catholic or perhaps not yet Catholic, made the following observation; if everyone did not hate and malign the Catholic Church so, it would not be Christ's true Church.

That thought stayed with me.

Hatred doesn't determine right or wrong.

 

[ripple the car]

Hatred doesn't determine right or wrong.

In a very general sense, perhaps not. But spiritually, it can point to something.

 

[Rescued One]

In a very general sense, perhaps not. But spiritually, it can point to something.

Disagreement means Christians can discuss doctrine for the benefit of others. God expects Christians to be kind and not harsh.

Proverbs 15
1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.

 

[ripple the car]

Disagreement means Christians can discuss doctrine for the benefit of others. God expects Christians to be kind and not harsh.

Proverbs 15
1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.

But that is not at all what I am referring to. All across the board, Protestants, Orthodox, and Anabaptist Christians seem generally unified in their intense dislike of all that is Historic, Traditional Catholicism. Some are kind and gracious, but many are not.

 

[Mountainmike]

And stabat explains the reason is that Christianity is made so unappealing.

The first quote you make tries to imply an elect predestined, which is how you context "the sheep" as if to say they are who they are, and our need to radiate the good news has nothing to do with it.

That's not " God said" . "That's phoebe said, proof texting words from scripture, to support her apriori position.
I can select words out of context to support any doctrine I like. And many do that.

So in presenting your position as " God said" - perhaps you should say " I think God meant this.... by this.."

Which is stabats point. Presentation of opinion matters.

God explains that the reason there are ones who won't believe, is because they are not His sheep. We are all aware that in the end, there will be sheep on the right and goats on the left.

John 10
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Christians obey because they love the Lord. I haven't started a single thread criticizing Catholics. Those who love God will read their Bibles to know His will.

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

All glory to our Holy Trinity!

 

[Rescued One]

But that is not at all what I am referring to. All across the board, Protestants, Orthodox, and Anabaptist Christians seem generally unified in their intense dislike of all that is Historic, Traditional Catholicism. Some are kind and gracious, but many are not.

Everyone of us needs more practice in graciousness and kindness. I think that there are many people who are members of churches without having had the new birth and a desire to behave in a way that God wants. I've fallen short many times. I pray for God to make me into the person He wants me to be. Do all Catholics say kind things about non-Catholics?

 

[Rescued One]

And stabat explains the reason is that Christianity is made so unappealing.

The first quote you make tries to imply an elect predestined, which is how you context "the sheep" as if to say they are who they are, and our need to radiate the good news has nothing to do with it.

That's not " God said" . "That's phoebe said, proof texting words from scripture, to support her apriori position.
I can select words out of context to support any doctrine I like. And many do that.

So in presenting your position as " God said" - perhaps you should say " I think God meant this.... by this.."

Which is stabats point. Presentation of opinion matters.

To be more specific Jesus said that.

 

[amariselle]

Years ago, a poster on CAF who was *not* Catholic or perhaps not yet Catholic, made the following observation; if everyone did not hate and malign the Catholic Church so, it would not be Christ's true Church.

That thought stayed with me.

Now, I'm asking this honestly, but since you mention "hate" for the Catholic Church as proof that it is "Christ's true Church", what do you make of what the Catholic Church has done throughout history?

 

[amariselle]

Have you not? Had you considered that the squabble on doctrine makes Christianity so unappealing , nobody would want to come? And that I think is Stabats point. I think The nature of the confrontation stops people from coming to Christ.

Our Lord said that by this we will be known , " that you love one another" . Hard to find in many of the caustic debates.

The sheer number of threads started with the very purpose of kicking Catholicism shows mal intent on the part of the authors - when they state their own interpretation is right to exclusion of all others -they should show more humility. Engage in good humoured debate. They think they are right, they cannot know. And the fact they often oppose all that the early fathers including those who chose the canon and creed believed, should give them reason to pause for thought.

The same folk ritually dump the Same anticatholic myth playbook into threads. Like " call no man father" - which proves they have not studied scripture let alone Catholicism! How does it help? Who does it help? It certainly does not help Christianity, or bring more to Christ.

Wait, did Jesus actually say "call no man father, or didn't He?

 

[amariselle]

But that is not at all what I am referring to. All across the board, Protestants, Orthodox, and Anabaptist Christians seem generally unified in their intense dislike of all that is Historic, Traditional Catholicism. Some are kind and gracious, but many are not.

The exact same can be said of how many Catholics treat those they call "Sola Scriptura", and I see just as much of that here and elsewhere as what Catholics call "Catholic bashing."

Personally, I've tried repeatedly to engage in conversation in the past by providing scripture and material directly from the Catholic Catechism, even that has been called "anti-Catholic" or "Catholic bashing". I've seen others likewise, respectfully ask a question and present relevant concerns regarding Catholicism only to be dismissed as "hateful."

So, if we're going to be fair, it comes from both sides.

 

[GirdYourLoins]

some people do claim scriptural authority and that's not right.

there are then others who confront someone who has presented flawed theology and will present exegetical and hermeneutical evidence for their claim of someone being in error. there is nothing wrong with this and can serve to refine the understanding of all involved.

Agreed. There are a few on here who claim scriptural superiority and I have challenges them to back up their theology with scriptures that show their point of view. The ones I have an issue with will not do this and just claim God has told them through scripture and they are right and you are wrong. You can post scriptures that clearly contradict what they are saying and they still do not accept it.

I am always open to people believing something different to me, as long as it is in line with scripture and they can show that. If its down to a difference in interpretation of the Word I can accept to disagree but that we interpret it differently. Sometimes I will even agree with them if it proves my interpretation (including what I have been taught) is incorrect. After all, we are all fallible, only God is not.