About claiming scriptural authority...

Stabat Mater dolorosa

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Did you know that though you consider doing so when confronted by the challenging theology of others pious, you actually undermine and falsify them by patronizing their faith and position.

This actually leads to the opposite of what you probably thought, you're helping the secularization of Christianity all together.

If theology falls into the fallpit where there's no room for challenges and/ or need for good reasons to uphold doctrine and normative theology without being ostracized, then in the end Christianity will end up as a private matter, a faith where everyone claim orthodoxy in their interpretation of scripture and no theology is open for discussion.

If all Christians saw theology this way then we'd face a completely privatised and secular, subjective religion.

The reason why this is the case?
If no-one's allowed to question any part of what constitutes your faith in God then the door into a fruitful theological discussion is forever closed.

So, to all you in here (and there are several of you) who seek to toss your own subjective interpretation of scripture on others and do your best to strangle discussion by claiming superior insight in scripture.

You end up in that ditch, you run the errand of the world, a world who seek to undermine Christianity and shatter the faithful and spreading them around, cut of the rest of the Christian world. The world wants to see Christianity torn apart and privatised to the level where even evangelizing people will be ilegalised.

Sola Scriptura with every man as interpreter can easily be the end of Christianity as a cultural and moral voice in a increasingly anti Christian world.
 

Dave-W

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Sola Scriptura with every man as interpreter can easily be the end of Christianity as a cultural and moral voice in a increasingly anti Christian world.
Well - thank God its not up to the Christians.

Romans 3:1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?
2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.
 
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amariselle

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Did you know that though you consider doing so when confronted by the challenging theology of others pious, you actually undermine and falsify them by patronizing their faith and position.

This actually leads to the opposite of what you probably thought, you're helping the secularization of Christianity all together.

If theology falls into the fallpit where there's no room for challenges and/ or need for good reasons to uphold doctrine and normative theology without being ostracized, then in the end Christianity will end up as a private matter, a faith where everyone claim orthodoxy in their interpretation of scripture and no theology is open for discussion.

If all Christians saw theology this way then we'd face a completely privatised and secular, subjective religion.

The reason why this is the case?
If no-one's allowed to question any part of what constitutes your faith in God then the door into a fruitful theological discussion is forever closed.

So, to all you in here (and there are several of you) who seek to toss your own subjective interpretation of scripture on others and do your best to strangle discussion by claiming superior insight in scripture.

You end up in that ditch, you run the errand of the world, a world who seek to undermine Christianity and shatter the faithful and spreading them around, cut of the rest of the Christian world. The world wants to see Christianity torn apart and privatised to the level where even evangelizing people will be ilegalised.

Sola Scriptura with every man as interpreter can easily be the end of Christianity as a cultural and moral voice in a increasingly anti Christian world.

In other words, we should all just unquestioningly agree with the teachings of the Catholic Church and come under the authority of the Pope.

Then we can all be happy.

Got it.
 
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amariselle

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I'll also add this:

I for one have never "done my best to strangle discussion by claiming superior insight into Scripture."

I've actually done the opposite and tried to encourage discussion by sharing Scripture (in comparison to, for instance, what the Catholic Catechism teaches about a particular subject).
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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In other words, we should all just unquestioningly agree with the teachings of the Catholic Church and come under the authority of the Pope.

Then we can all be happy.

Got it.

No you didn't get it.
Did I mention Rome even once?, no I didn't.

This is a jab at those who spread the sheep and a alarm bell to those who suffer under their own insecure faith combined with a pinch of pride.

It doesn't have to be Rome, but as you can read off of my OP in order to keep total secularization of our religion from getting a flat out victory we need to entrust the theologians through the church, the professionals who actually knows what they're doing when interpreting scripture in the original language.

If our theology is rubbing you of then choose a different church, but don't fall into pride and believe yourself to be the ultimate theologian and judge.

If you don't like Rome, then seek the Methodists, the Anglicans, the Lutherans or any other church.
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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I'll also add this:

I for one have never "done my best to strangle discussion by claiming superior insight into Scripture."

I've actually done the opposite and tried to encourage discussion by sharing Scripture (in comparison to, for instance, what the Catholic Catechism teaches about a particular subject).

You do all the time.
Your highly subjective and often simplistic interpretation has often times come in conflict with an honest theological discussion in here.

Read what I wrote above. Reject Rome, but leave the scriptural hubris of the lone interpreter behind...
 
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com7fy8

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If you don't like Rome, then seek the Methodists, the Anglicans, the Lutherans or any other church.
So, it looks like you are recommending we choose from among groups who are based on what scholars have concluded. But scholars have not come to the same conclusion!!!

So, how ever is an uneducated person supposed to know which advanced scholar is the real expert on original language . . . for one example . . . if we ourselves are not experts????

I think God is more reliable, and He is able to have us know what He is really sharing with us. And so, if He really is personally sharing with us, this is not subjective or sola scripture, but this is God sharing with us in His love which has us living His meaning which is more and better than scholarly interpretation can produce.

So, God is better than institutionalized interpretation and superior to how individuals imperfectly can dictate what scripture means :)
 
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amariselle

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No you didn't get it.
Did I mention Rome even once?, no I didn't.

This is a jab at those who spread the sheep and a alarm bell to those who suffer under their own insecure faith combined with a pinch of pride.

It doesn't have to be Rome, but as you can read off of my OP in order to keep total secularization of our religion from getting a flat out victory we need to entrust the theologians through the church, the professionals who actually knows what they're doing when interpreting scripture in the original language.

If our theology is rubbing you of then choose a different church, but don't fall into pride and believe yourself to be the ultimate theologian and judge.

If you don't like Rome, then seek the Methodists, the Anglicans, the Lutherans or any other church.

When did I ever say that I never desire to listen to anyone else's thoughts besides my own?

I have never said that.

What I have said is that I believe Scripture is clear that we must test all the teachings and claims of men by the word of God.

And, indeed, it is a privilege and an honour to be able to do so. One that many countless others died for, and it still remains difficult if not impossible for many in our world, even today.
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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So, it looks like you are recommending we choose from among groups who are based on what scholars have concluded. But scholars have not come to the same conclusion!!!

So, how ever is an uneducated person supposed to know which advanced scholar is the real expert on original language . . . for one example . . . if we ourselves are not experts????

I think God is more reliable, and He is able to have us know what He is really sharing with us. And so, if He really is personally sharing with us, this is not subjective or sola scripture, but this is God sharing with us in His love which has us living His meaning which is more and better than scholarly interpretation can produce.

So, God is better than institutionalized interpretation and superior to how individuals imperfectly can dictate what scripture means :)

Thank you for emphasizing the very point I was making.
 
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amariselle

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You do all the time.
Your highly subjective and often simplistic interpretation has often times come in conflict with an honest theological discussion in here.

Read what I wrote above. Reject Rome, but leave the scriptural hubris of the lone interpreter behind...

It's clear you have not been reading my posts. I have repeatedly provided Scripture in an attempt to discuss what is being said, or to clarify what I am referring to. It's called discussion or even debate. Just because you do not agree with someone else's viewpoint, does not mean they are attempting to "strangle" the conversation.

But, believe as you like.
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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When did I ever say that I never desire to listen to anyone else's thoughts besides my own?

I have never said that.

What I have said is that I believe Scripture is clear that we must test all the teachings and claims of men by the word of God.

And, indeed, it is a privilege and an honour to be able to do so. One that many countless others died for, and it still remains difficult if not impossible for many in our world, even today.

Few if any have died for that.
The reason this deception that a mere lay can understand the great depth in scripture has to do with the vacuum made possible by pluralism not any reformers.

If any of the reformers had anything to do with this it must've been the Anabaptists, but even there you have to adhere to some doctrine.
Luther certainly rejected any such idea as lay interpretation.
 
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amariselle

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Few if any have died for that.
The reason this deception that a mere lay can understand the great depth in scripture has to do with the vacuum made possible by pluralism not any reformers.

If any of the reformers had anything to do with this it must've been the Anabaptists, but even there you have to adhere to some doctrine.
Luther certainly rejected any such idea as lay interpretation.

Wow...if you honestly believe that no one has died because they read the Bible for themselves and desired others to likewise have this precious opportunity, I don't even know where to start.

I would suggest you do some more research.

I also wonder what role you think the Holy Spirit has in the life of every believer if you do not believe that He can and does enable us to discern the very Scripture He inspired.
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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Wow...if you honestly believe that no one has died because they read the Bible for themselves and desired others to likewise have this precious opportunity, I don't even know where to start.

I would suggest you do some more research.

I also wonder what role you think the Holy Spirit has in the life of every believer if you do not believe that He can and does enable us to discern the very Scripture He inspired.

I said FEW if ANY.
I do, but when a million say the same as you do, but comes to a million of different conclusions then I'm confident in what I wrote in my op.
 
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amariselle

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I said FEW if ANY.
I do, but when a million say the same as you do, but comes to a million of different conclusions then I'm confident in what I wrote in my op.

If you think it's "few if any", you need to do more research. Well documented history says otherwise.

Also, if you think there are not "a million different conclusions" even within the Catholic Church, and throughout its history, you are sadly mistaken. Just because all those (who have just as many varied beliefs and opinions as non-Catholics) still call themselves Catholic and are recognized as such, does not mean there is some perfect and cohesive unity in the Catholic Church.

People have free will and can think for themselves, that's a fact of life.
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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If you think it's "few if any", you need to do more research. Well documented history says otherwise.

Also, if you think there are not "a million different conclusions" even within the Catholic Church, and throughout its history, you are sadly mistaken. Just because all those (who have just as many varied beliefs and opinions as non-Catholics) still call themselves Catholic and are recognized as such, does not mean there is some perfect and cohesive unity in the Catholic Church.

People have free will and can think for themselves, that's a fact of life.

I think your idea that individual lay interpretation has cost many life's is a false one. The fact that you think otherwise is probably due to the fact that you're counting other men's sacrifices as in support of your position where it really wasn't.

Did I imply that all Catholics are faithful and eventually will see the kingdom of God?
No I didn't.
 
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amariselle

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I think your idea that individual lay interpretation has cost many life's is a false one. The fact that you think otherwise is probably due to the fact that you're counting other men's sacrifices as in support of your position where it really wasn't.

Countless people died throughout history because they would not bow to the Roman Catholic Church or the Papacy. It is well documented history.

Did I imply that all Catholics are faithful and eventually will see the kingdom of God?
No I didn't.

Are you saying that one has to be a faithful Catholic to see the kingdom of God?
 
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amariselle

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The failing to address the OP says more than thousand words really.
Nitpicking instead of coming with counter arguments...

I'm not sure what you expected when you chose to vilify all those who are "Sola Scriptura."

The OP was blantently atagonistic.
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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Countless people died throughout history because they would not bow to the Roman Catholic Church or the Papacy. It is well documented history.

That has nothing to do with non-ecclesiastical interpretation of scripture.

Are you saying that one has to be a faithful Catholic to see the kingdom of God?

The safe route, but not necessarily the only route. God is the judge of souls and not bound by any limits, yet we are.

On judgement day we'll see.
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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I'm not sure what you expected when you chose to vilify all those who are "Sola Scriptura."

The OP was blantently atagonistic.

I expected intelligent counter arguments. I'm sorry I didn't get any though...
 
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