Abortion

[stevevw]

I’m saying that the rate of abortions is declining, in the US it’s near record lows, and your assertion that it’s becoming more common is untrue.

I was responding to the level of current abortions at 125,000 a day. It is good that abortion is on the decline but at 125,000 a day that is fairly common. Those levels are still high and shocking. the annual total of over 46 million is like wiping out a Nations worth of potential children everyday.

The decline is not as though people have suddenly found a conscience and realized that abortion is wrong. The decline is more to do with a number of factors such as better access to contraception, restrictions and people having less sex because of economic and social reasons.

Unless you define god as better contraception and education that’s a misappropriation of thanks.

It depends on a persons position. According to God abortion is taking a life so should be avoided altogether.

If according to pro-abortion advocates there's nothing wrong with abortion and a fetus is just a clump of cells then any decline due to education and better access to contraception would make little sense apart from being less inconvenienced in having to get an abortion because of better access to contraception and economic reasons. Therefore I don't think anyone can claim any moral points for much of the reduction.

 

[Lobster Johnson]

God is wiser and more righteous than any human. Humans are selfish and cruel and are ignorant while God is the opposite. There really isn't a comparison between our decisions and God's.

That proves my initial point.

If God only makes right decisions, and sometimes God kills people, that means sometimes killing people is the right decision.

 

[ewq1938]

That proves my initial point.

If God only makes right decisions, and sometimes God kills people, that means sometimes killing people is the right decision.

Only when God decides it, not when humans decide it without God's permission.

 

[coffee4u]

I think I've been misled this whole time. Currently New Zealand is debating whether Abortion should be less strict than it currently is. Now, I always said Abortion should never happen as I thought that my personal opinion aligned with God. However, I just read something regarding Abortion (I've never read the Bible although I should) on a website and apparently Anti-Abortion is a Zealot Following. Are Zealots Christians?

The dictionary says Zealot: a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals.
Are you not uncompromising on any topic? What about human trafficking, female circumcision or child abuse? I'm sure you are, even non-Christian can be zealots for various causes.

I know they believe in a God but I'm not sure if they're followers of Jesus Christ or if they follow the Bible.

I know of no groups called 'The Zealots'. I think you simply read that Christians who are against abortion are zealots. That's a description not a group. My guess is the person who used the description is all for 'woman's rights' because the unborn should have none according to them. They are using the phrase as an insult. Insulting the person telling the truth is what people do when they have no case to argue.

I also heard that God wasn't entirely pro-life and the website I looked at used Bible Quotes and used references to when pregnant women were killed, etc.

If you mean did God killed off nations, yes he did, it was a judgment upon evil. The nations that he wiped out practised human sacrifice of babies, devil worship and some practised cannibalism.
2 Kings 17:17
And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings and used divination and omens and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger.

So, my debate is around Abortion. Is Abortion really bad?

The word 'abortion' distances people from the act. A woman is pregnant, she gets an abortion of a fetus and now she isn't pregnant, sounds tidy and easy.
Until you look into it and realize what happens during an abortion. I will save you looking into it, but *trigger warning* it means vacuum sucking arms and legs off babies, puncturing their skulls and sucking their brains out. That's hard for me to write, but it's the truth. For me it's monstrous, vile and disgusting.

 

[FireDragon76]

Anti-Abortion is mostly a really modern issue outside of the catholic church. The mainstream evangelicals only discovered it after they lost the culture war in the US and needed a new moral high ground.

Go back a few decades and nearly all non-catholic christians would tell you that the decision to abort is between a woman and her doctor, maybe with close relatives included.

Sort of- many Protestants considered it problematic but it definitely wasn't seen as a political issue worth spending much energy opposing.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Of course it is. It is wrong to murder babies...it's at least in the top 5 worst sins possible.

might want to rethink the above statement

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Each commandment so relates to the other that it is impossible to transgress one without transgressing every other one also in the same act.

One who has broken God’s law—and breaking one means breaking all ten

so it appears that all sin are equal to each other without ranking except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit

Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

 

[Larniavc]

There is a huge difference between humans deciding to kill their children without God's permission and God deciding when children of evil people should be killed.

Not if you are the baby in question. God killing unborn children of evil people is evil.

 

[SPF]

If God only makes right decisions, and sometimes God kills people, that means sometimes killing people is the right decision.

The distinction lies in that according to Scripture, God hasn't given me the authority to kill an innocent human being. Abortion is the killing of innocent human beings.

98.5% of all abortions are committed for convenience reasons. For Christians, this is seen as immoral because the life of the unborn is of equal inherent moral worth and value as the life of those who are born. The location one is residing, or their age, or their mental development plays no bearing on a person's inherent moral worth and value. We don't discriminate like that.

And again, as Christians, we understand that God is the Eternal Creator and the author of all life, and He has the authority and power to carry out judgment. That is categorically different than a mother deciding that her life would be more convenient if she killed her innocent unborn child.

 

[LiquidCat]

so Most people would agree that Children go to heaven when they die , why don't we or God kill all these childrens who would in future be disobediend and not saved ?
As we are told in Scriptures only few make it to heaven so why risk it ?


Such logic is flawed because it does not take in consideration that killing a child is not only killing him but the whole line of souls which would probably come out of such child in the long run. Your grandpa 's grandpa could be an atheist and if God killed him then you wouldn't be there to serve God.

 

[Speedwell]

The dictionary says Zealot: a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals.
Are you not uncompromising on any topic? What about human trafficking, female circumcision or child abuse? I'm sure you are, even non-Christian can be zealots for various causes.



I know of no groups called 'The Zealots'. I think you simply read that Christians who are against abortion are zealots. That's a description not a group. My guess is the person who used the description is all for 'woman's rights' because the unborn should have none according to them. They are using the phrase as an insult. Insulting the person telling the truth is what people do when they have no case to argue.



If you mean did God killed off nations, yes he did, it was a judgment upon evil. The nations that he wiped out practised human sacrifice of babies, devil worship and some practised cannibalism.
2 Kings 17:17
And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings and used divination and omens and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger.


The word 'abortion' distances people from the act. A woman is pregnant, she gets an abortion of a fetus and now she isn't pregnant, sounds tidy and easy.
Until you look into it and realize what happens during an abortion. I will save you looking into it, but *trigger warning* it means vacuum sucking arms and legs off babies, puncturing their skulls and sucking their brains out. That's hard for me to write, but it's the truth. For me it's monstrous, vile and disgusting.

Except that most abortions take place before there are arms, legs, skulls or brains. Why exaggerate like that? Abortion is bad enough as it is without such lurid misrepresentations which only undercut the credibility of the pro-life movement.

 

[Strathos]

What makes it right for God but wrong for the woman? Whatever their respective motivations, the baby's just as dead either way.

How do you know that any particular abortion doesn't line up with God's decision anyway? There's plenty that happen on their own - maybe God appreciates some of the dirty work being taken off his hands.



Do you know what the term 'the principle is the same' means? It means that regardless of the individual differences between two entities carrying out an action, the basic reason they are carrying out the action are the same.

Women get abortions because they think life will be worse if they don't.
Same reason God takes out people with things like the Flood or when he commands his followers to wipe out a culture or whatever. He thinks life will be worse if they aren't killed.

I mean, I guess I'm presuming that's why God is supposedly doing it. I'm often told God is good and has a plan and that if he kills someone it was for a greater good. I guess it's possible that he's doing it for some other reason.

But women don't get abortions because its a fun way to spend an evening, they do it because they feel as if its the best decision they can make given their circumstances. It's a terrible thing to be in that situation, and they strive for the greater good, even if it requires doing something awful. Just like with the Flood. Same principle - an awful action for a greater good.

Providing you believe something like the Flood was really for a greater good. I really don't see how someone can think the Flood was good while also thinking that a desperate woman getting an abortion out of dire necessity is bad. Countless deaths seems worse than one death, and God doesn't have the excuse of being a limited mortal woman.



Gross.



But they are both doing it, ultimately, for the same reason - to attain a greater good. Both are fundamentally the idea that some humans need to die to attain a greater good.

Also, why do people always make the point that the baby has 'done no wrong?' No one gets an abortion because they think the baby has 'done wrong'. The get an abortion to not be pregnant anymore.

To a child, getting a shot from a doctor and getting poked with a needle by another child are both the same - a painful experience. But an adult knows that the former is justified and the latter is not.

 

[eik]

Is Abortion really bad?

The taking away of a life is always an evil act. The issue is whether it can be justifiable? Judicial reasons alone seem permissible, including medical. The foetus may be seriously impaired, or the product of rape, adultery or prostitution prior to an arranged marriage, where the Levitical law affords no rights whatsoever to the foetus in ordering the death of the adulteress. Other justifiable reasons are to prevent overpopulation, as in China. One can't envisage every chinese woman being allowed ten children. A foetus never had any legal rights. It only has moral rights attaching to its humanity and so our duty is to behave morally and treat the foetus with the utmost dignity. The desire of a woman to have an abortion for personal reasons should be prohibited by law.

 

[coffee4u]

Except that most abortions take place before there are arms, legs, skulls or brains. Why exaggerate like that? Abortion is bad enough as it is without such lurid misrepresentations which only undercut the credibility of the pro-life movement.

Vacuum extraction is used at 5 to 12 weeks. Vacuum Aspiration for Abortion | Michigan Medicine Arms, legs and skulls form very early. By 12 weeks there is a perfectly formed baby. https://www.uofmhealth.org/health-library/tw1078

>The softly fogged details<
Vacuum or suction aspiration
A hand-held suction device or suction machine gently empties your uterus.
Surgical Abortion - Awake under local anaesthetic | BPAS

Wow so glad it's 'gentle' and as easy as taking the garbage out.

Verses reality
Warning *graphic*
A suction tube (27 times stronger than a home vacuum cleaner) is inserted into the womb. The powerful suction tears the baby apart limb from limb and sucks it from the womb along with the placenta. The baby's remains are deposited into an attached waste bottle.

Do you know how hard it is to find out the facts? Very. Because most medical sites give the first version and why wouldn't they, they are trying to be 'kind' so those 'poor women' don't really know what they are doing continue to hand over their cash. If they had the facts how many would turn around and not continue? Women who go for abortions need to know the stone-cold facts.

For those with a stomach: Pro Life News | Human Rights, Abortion, Pro Life News | Live Action News

 

[ewq1938]

might want to rethink the above statement

One who has broken God’s law—and breaking one means breaking all ten

You didn't offer any support for this claim. I can prove that it's false:

Joh_19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Both the Romans and Jews sinned in this situation but the Jews sin was greater because they delivered Jesus to Pilate.

1Jn_5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

1Jn_5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Here we see that there are sins that are not unto death which makes them less than the kinds of sin that can lead to death.

Luk 20:46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;
Luk 20:47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

Again we see there are sins some commit which results in a greater damnation.

 

[NxNW]

The distinction lies in that according to Scripture, God hasn't given me the authority to kill an innocent human being. Abortion is the killing of innocent human beings.

Except the Bible claims that nobody is innocent. There is none righteous, no, not one, correct? Therefore, if you believe a human being is created at the moment of conception (it isn't, but we'll go with that for now), then the newly-created human is already sinful and deserving of hell. So abortion does NOT kill an innocent human being.

 

[ewq1938]

Except the Bible claims that nobody is innocent. There is none righteous, no, not one, correct?

That doesn't apply to babies. The unborn child is innocent.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.


Other translations:


(CEV) I did learn one thing: We were completely honest when God created us, but now we have twisted minds.


(ESV) See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.


(GW) I have found only this: God made people decent, but they looked for many ways to avoid being decent."


(MSG) Yet I did spot one ray of light in this murk: God made men and women true and upright; we're the ones who've made a mess of things.


upright


3477

03477 yashar {yaw-shawr'}


from 03474; TWOT - 930a; adj


AV - right 53, upright 42, righteous 9, straight 3, convenient 2,
Jasher 2, equity 1, just 1, meet 1, meetest 1, upright ones 1,
uprightly 1, uprightness 1, well 1; 119


1) straight, upright, correct, right
1a) straight, level
1b) right, pleasing, correct
1c) straightforward, just, upright, fitting, proper
1d) uprightness, righteous, upright
1e) that which is upright (subst)



God hath made man upright, meaning righteous and good, but man seeks out things that alter this beginning.

 

[Zoii]

I was confronted by the same issues as you. On the one hand, anti-abortion has a moral common sense approach in acknowledging the intrinsic value of life. It also fits well with Kantian ethics which upholds the sanctity of life and espouses that the end does not justify the means.

On the other hand we have opposing issues. The bible, as you highlight, is littered with examples of where God commanded the destruction of villages, putting to the sword every man woman and child (born and in utero).

From an ethical perspective, the notion of the sanctity of life breaks down in an era where the earth is over-populated. You will see evidence of this within Christian Forums where the majority of Christians are vehemently against refugeeism. In that example, the lives of the starving and dying in countries not our own, have less value.

The other opposing ethical issue, comes about when we acknowledge this is not a black and white issue. There are many justifiable reasons for abortion - An array of medical conditions for a start eg A pregnant woman who discovers she has cervical cancer warranting hysterectomy, a woman requiring chemotherapy of radiotherapy that will inevitably bring about spontaneous abortion or kill the foetus, severe pre-eclampsia... these are a few of many conditions that will give rise to abortion being recommended.

Then there are those women who are very young, impoverished, raped, or in fear of their life (eg the pregnant islamic girl fearing an honour killing).

My personal position is that abortion is a sad option to take and is to be avoided as an easy goto solution for an unwanted pregnancy. But for those who do elect that option, you can be sure it was a difficult choice for the majority, and I will not be the one to throw the first stone at those women; I'll leave that to the very pious and sinless here.

 

[Lobster Johnson]

Only when God decides it, not when humans decide it without God's permission.

Either an action is the right one or the wrong one. It cannot be down to a somebody deciding a wrong action is right if it would otherwise be wrong without the decision. That's just nonsense.

To a child, getting a shot from a doctor and getting poked with a needle by another child are both the same - a painful experience. But an adult knows that the former is justified and the latter is not.

Except that's two different actions with two different intents and two different desired outcomes. I'm talking about the same action, same intent, same desired outcome, done by two different people.

All things being equal, it cannot be down to it being wrong for Person A and right for Person B just because Person B is Person B. That would make right and wrong entirely arbitrary.

 

[ewq1938]

Either an action is the right one or the wrong one. It cannot be down to a somebody deciding a wrong action is right if it would otherwise be wrong without the decision. That's just nonsense.

No, it's not. Whatever God does is always right and just even when killing. Human's often kill for the wrong reasons...petty and selfish reasons usually. God is above those types of things.

 

[Sketcher]

It floors me that many of the same people who believe abortion is sinful, also believe that proven effective means of making abortion unnecessary are sinful, too. I cannot comprehend the mindset that elevates religious dogma over objective thinking and common sense.

Which "means" did you have in mind exactly?

I don't have a problem with birth control methods that are not abortifacient. However, many on the pro-choice side do not count the use of abortifacient treatments as abortions, so it's hard to have a productive conversation with them about this.