Abortion

[Joshua S]

I think I've been misled this whole time. Currently New Zealand is debating whether Abortion should be less strict than it currently is. Now, I always said Abortion should never happen as I thought that my personal opinion aligned with God. However, I just read something regarding Abortion (I've never read the Bible although I should) on a website and apparently Anti-Abortion is a Zealot Following. Are Zealots Christians? I know they believe in a God but I'm not sure if they're followers of Jesus Christ or if they follow the Bible.

I also heard that God wasn't entirely pro-life and the website I looked at used Bible Quotes and used references to when pregnant women were killed, etc.

So, my debate is around Abortion. Is Abortion really bad?

 

[Nithavela]

Anti-Abortion is mostly a really modern issue outside of the catholic church. The mainstream evangelicals only discovered it after they lost the culture war in the US and needed a new moral high ground.

Go back a few decades and nearly all non-catholic christians would tell you that the decision to abort is between a woman and her doctor, maybe with close relatives included.

 

[ewq1938]

(I've never read the Bible although I should)

uh, yes you should read the bible as a Christian.

So, my debate is around Abortion. Is Abortion really bad?

??
Of course it is. It is wrong to murder babies...it's at least in the top 5 worst sins possible.

 

[Joshua S]

uh, yes you should read the bible as a Christian.



??
Of course it is. It is wrong to murder babies...it's at least in the top 5 worst sins possible.

I know I should read the Bible but I seem to avoid it quite a lot. I'm not great at reading paper versions of books. I should probably see if I can find one online.

As for the top 5 worst sins, where exactly did you get that information? I've never heard of Christianity having a 'top 5 worst sins', I've heard of the 10 Commandments and I've heard of the unforgivable sin as well as the seven deadly sins but I've never heard of the 'top 5 worst sins'.

 

[Joshua S]

This was a paragraph I found from the website regarding abortion:

We know that God killed millions of unborn children and their pregnant mothers-to-be in the Noachian deluge, the conquest of Canaan, the incineration of Sodom and Gomorrah and in 20 major slaughters described in the bible. The critical feature of these horrific events is that all people were exterminated. Whenever entire communities were massacred, we can be sure that pregnant mothers-to-be and their unborn children were among the victims. Moreover, there are no stated exemptions for this specific segment of the population.

 

[Joshua S]

As well as this:

Jesus did not express any special concern for unborn children during the anticipated end times: "Woe to pregnant women and those who are nursing" (Matthew 24:19)

 

[ewq1938]

As for the top 5 worst sins, where exactly did you get that information?

My morals? Killing a baby is obviously one of the worst things you can do...everyone should automatically have that "information" inside of them.

 

[ewq1938]

As well as this:

Jesus did not express any special concern for unborn children during the anticipated end times: "Woe to pregnant women and those who are nursing" (Matthew 24:19)

Clearly Jesus DID express special concern...

 

[Joshua S]

My morals? Killing a baby is obviously one of the worst things you can do...everyone should automatically have that "information" inside of them.

You're lacking evidence. You can't use logic. Using logic is not using religious facts. Also, killing a baby in a womb may be wrong in a human outlook but is it wrong in a religious outlook? I personally thought it was bad but if it was bad then why did God most likely kill humans who were pregnant? For example, during the flood, there would have been pregnant women that would've drowned thus meaning that the children in the woman's womb would've also died.

 

[Joshua S]

Clearly Jesus DID express special concern...

Where is the evidence? Is there a quote in the Bible you could refer me too?

 

[Mountainmanbob]

This was a paragraph I found from the website regarding abortion:

We know that God killed millions of unborn children and their pregnant mothers-to-be in the Noachian deluge, the conquest of Canaan, the incineration of Sodom and Gomorrah and in 20 major slaughters described in the bible. The critical feature of these horrific events is that all people were exterminated. Whenever entire communities were massacred, we can be sure that pregnant mothers-to-be and their unborn children were among the victims. Moreover, there are no stated exemptions for this specific segment of the population.

Having God decide that a little baby will not be here is a lot different then you deciding if a little baby will be here or not.
M-Bob

 

[Strong in Him]

You're lacking evidence. You can't use logic. Using logic is not using religious facts.

With respect; you don't read the Bible, yet you have found a website which, as part of its pro-abortion stance, uses quotes from Scripture to "prove" its point. But those quotes don't prove anything. There is a difference between God killing someone in judgement, and a woman making the decision to kill her own baby - for something that may amount to little more than convenience. I'm not say that all women who have abortions do it for that reason, but there ARE some who use it as a form of birth control/because the baby's not the right gender/financial circumstances.

As you don't read the Bible, you are no doubt unaware of Psalms 139,which says that God saw us when we were first conceived; or that God called, and appointed, Jeremiah before he was even born, Jeremiah 1:5, or that when Jesus' mother Mary visited Elizabeth, her cousin, Elizabeth's own baby leapt for joy while still in her womb, Luke 1:44.

Also, killing a baby in a womb may be wrong in a human outlook but is it wrong in a religious outlook?

An unborn baby - who was created in the image of God, Genesis 1:26-27 - is unable to speak or act for itself and relies on its mother for nourishment and protection. Is it correct to take that source of protection away and make the decision to inflict pain and death on it?
All through the Bible, God is clearly on the side of the poor, disadvantaged and those who do not have a voice and are exploited by others.

For example, during the flood, there would have been pregnant women that would've drowned thus meaning that the children in the woman's womb would've also died.

Like I said, the flood was the result of God's judgement on a wicked world that had forgotten/rejected him.
It was not women saying "I don't want to be pregnant any more, please kill my baby".

 

[Joshua S]

With respect; you don't read the Bible, yet you have found a website which, as part of its pro-abortion stance, uses quotes from Scripture to "prove" its point. But those quotes don't prove anything. There is a difference between God killing someone in judgement, and a woman making the decision to kill her own baby - for something that may amount to little more than convenience. I'm not say that all women who have abortions do it for that reason, but there ARE some who use it as a form of birth control/because the baby's not the right gender/financial circumstances.

As you don't read the Bible, you are no doubt unaware of Psalms 139,which says that God saw us when we were first conceived; or that God called, and appointed, Jeremiah before he was even born, Jeremiah 1:5, or that when Jesus' mother Mary visited Elizabeth, her cousin, Elizabeth's own baby leapt for joy while still in her womb, Luke 1:44.



An unborn baby - who was created in the image of God, Genesis 1:26-27 - is unable to speak or act for itself and relies on its mother for nourishment and protection. Is it correct to take that source of protection away and make the decision to inflict pain and death on it?
All through the Bible, God is clearly on the side of the poor, disadvantaged and those who do not have a voice and are exploited by others.



Like I said, the flood was the result of God's judgement on a wicked world that had forgotten/rejected him.
It was not women saying "I don't want to be pregnant any more, please kill my baby".

I could see how that makes sense. Humans killing an unborn child verses God killing an unborn child. God's the Giver and Taker of Life and Humans aren't so that clearly makes sense. What I do wonder is why people make websites to lie about God. I am starting to see a clearer picture that the website I looked at was most likely made to confuse people about God and see him in a wrong view.

 

[Strong in Him]

I could see how that makes sense. Humans killing an unborn child verses God killing an unborn child. God's the Giver and Taker of Life and Humans aren't so that clearly makes sense. What I do wonder is why people make websites to lie about God.

Non Christians probably don't care about God; they may even deny that he exists. People who have an agenda may do everything they can to promote it, and quoting the Bible may "hook" Christians and others who read Scripture. It won't matter to the person quoting it that they quote it out of context, only that it has the result that they want.
A person can prove anything they want by misusing the Bible in this way.

 

[ewq1938]

You're lacking evidence. You can't use logic.

Yes I can.

Using logic is not using religious facts.

Murder is against God's law, which just so happens to be a religious fact.

Also, killing a baby in a womb may be wrong in a human outlook but is it wrong in a religious outlook?

Yes.

I personally thought it was bad but if it was bad then why did God most likely kill humans who were pregnant?

Whatever God does is righteous automatically.

For example, during the flood, there would have been pregnant women that would've drowned thus meaning that the children in the woman's womb would've also died.

That is God's business and we are not worthy to question such things. We, however, can't decide whether babies should die or not.

 

[Nithavela]

Even as a non-christian, I'm going to go with the opinion of most christiansin this thread in that you should propably start reading the bible.

There are some guides on how to read the bible time-efficiently online. Propably some audio formats to for your commute, if you do such a thing. There are some bits in there that are less important, like the religious laws that are no longer followed, or long lineages. If you want my opinion, you should read Genesis, Exodus and then one of the gospels. I'd suggest Mark.

 

[com7fy8]

Jesus was Jesus, as soon as He was conceived in Mary's womb. And when women of God got pregnant, as soon as they knew they were pregnant, they knew that the LORD had given them children.

So, if you love your unborn, you know your unborn is a child. And love makes you strong so unloving people can not scare and shame and pressure you into killing your own child. So, abortion is not only a problem of taking a life. Love is very insecure in the United States; we see also how there has been over a fifty-percent divorce rate. And so much degradation and failure comes from how people do not know how to love their unborn and succeed in marriage.

Abortion is not by itself, but a product of people first not being able to love. And this problem has been fed partly by how church culture is copy-cat without the strength and satisfaction of love in parents, so they are weak and fighting and suffering and this turns children away from God so they go with peer influence of others who do not know how to love. And in their weakness and deep suffering they are desperate for pleasure. Pleasure is their preference and treasure with each other; and they go downhill into smoking and immorality and drugs; and in order to keep getting the pleasure they treasure, they even can kill.

Killing the unborn can be like getting rid of a peer who does not conform to the group. It is killing the future person who the killer fears the child will become in her life.

If we trust in Jesus, our bodies are Christ's body, not our own.

"Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?" (1 Corinthians 6:19)

So, not only are our bodies not our own; but we ourselves belong to Jesus who suffered and died for us, in order to bring us out of Satan's kingdom > "from the power of Satan to God", we have in Acts 26:18. In sin, we were "dead in trespasses and sins", we have in Ephesians 2:1-3, and "by nature children of wrath, just as the others." We understand how hate is a way of murder, even if we don't actually kill someone. Just by not loving someone, in a way we are killing the person; we could be putting the person through a very cruel process, emotionally, unless the person is strong in love in spite of us, of course, in Jesus' love.

So, abortion is not alone, but part of Satan's kingdom of love-dead hate and misery and destruction and unforgiveness and selfishness which help to degrade someone to be able to kill an unborn person. And God is able to take care of a mother and her child, in spite of this evil and cruel world.

We see how many problems our Apostle Paul faced, in order to care for God's children > 2 Corinthians 12:7-15. But he discovered how God's grace could take care of him and have him even take "pleasure" in troubles.

But, as I mean, if people are into church culture with only copy-catting and conforming, they can fail to have deep strength and satisfaction in doing their religious and moral things. And children can see this and decide they do not want to fake with their parents. But such children then go to peers, often enough, so they fail, too. And in their desperation for pleasure and excitement, they can be very cruel to whoever gets in the way of them getting their treasure pleasures.

But with Jesus "you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30) Jesus makes us free so Satanic dominating drives for pleasure can not get the better of us. Jesus satisfies us, giving us strength so we can't be eaten alive by Satan and his loneliness and boredom and unforgiveness and nasty angry reacting and dominating and desperate drives for pleasure and excitement. So, it is wise not to surrender to abortion or to peer pressure and religious copy-catting with its way of peer pressure. But submit to how our Heavenly Father desires to personally rule each of us in His own peace in sharing with Him >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

 

[Joshua S]

Non Christians probably don't care about God; they may even deny that he exists. People who have an agenda may do everything they can to promote it, and quoting the Bible may "hook" Christians and others who read Scripture. It won't matter to the person quoting it that they quote it out of context, only that it has the result that they want.
A person can prove anything they want by misusing the Bible in this way.

What an awful thing to do. That really puts the darkness in darkness. It's not like Christians go out of their way to forcefully make Atheists Christians so why do they do that to us? Most Christians promote Christianity in a way that is respectful and adheres to our Christian Values. If people who aren't Christians purposefully try to deceive us and lie to us and Christians unintentionally fall for it before realizing they just got lied too by someone who hates Christians enough to falsify the book for which is the greatest book in Christian History and in some minds, in history altogether, why would they do this? It's just pure evil.

 

[Joshua S]

Yes I can.



Murder is against God's law, which just so happens to be a religious fact.




Yes.




Whatever God does is righteous automatically.



That is God's business and we are not worthy to question such things. We, however, can't decide whether babies should die or not.

I realize this now. Thanks for the clarification. I am highly against Abortion myself but lost myself to a website that literally stated God was pro-abortion. People use the internet to attempt to convert people to evil and it's sad.

 

[ewq1938]

I realize this now. Thanks for the clarification.

That's why we are here to help each other understand things that sometimes are hard to understand.