Abortion

[chari.chari]

When I was in 4th grade, my old catechism teacher showed us a video called "The Silent Scream" which showed a baby screaming and writhing during an abortion.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

When I was in 4th grade, my old catechism teacher showed us a video called "The Silent Scream" which showed a baby screaming and writhing during an abortion.

It's sad when people of power lie and are dishonest to young people to get an agenda across.

 

[Hungry Hungry Hippo]

This film is a pro-life propaganda piece and I highly question the validity of the information presented in it.

Film?

My $0.02 on the whole abortion issue is that there is no easy answer. It becomes extemely difficult to distinguish what's "human", when it's unethical to abort, and what kind of laws should be passed. To me, it's clear that early term abortions do not kill human life. When the fetus becomes human or "more human" or "human enough not to kill" is very difficult to determine.

 

[snugglepuff]

It's sad when people of power lie and are dishonest to young people to get an agenda across.

How is showing a video of a baby being aborted lying or being dishonest?

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

How is showing a video of a baby being aborted lying or being dishonest?

You must go to private school, don't you?

 

[snugglepuff]

What are you trying to say?

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

What are you trying to say?

I was asking you if you go to a private school.

 

[chari.chari]

Why would you assume she goes to a private school?

 

[flicka]

Why would you assume she goes to a private school?

No public school would show "The Silent Scream" to a 4th grade class.

 

[chari.chari]

Yep, I went to a private school.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Yep, I went to a private school.

Right, I didn't think a public school board would allow "The Scilent Scam" to be shown but a private or religious school possible would. That is why I asked.

 

[gladiatrix]

When I was in 4th grade, my old catechism teacher showed us a video called "The Silent Scream" which showed a baby screaming and writhing during an abortion.

This film is nothing but the usual anti-choicer Goebbelspeak. Not only is this film loaded with medical inaccuracies, the film-makers felt it necessary to do things like speed up the film (to make it look as though the fetus was trying to avoid the suction cannula). One has got to ask that if the anti-choicers had the medical facts on their side, then why is it necessary to lie like this film does in spades.

Here are just a few of the lies told in this anti-choice propaganda piece:

1. A fetus can "scream".

Rebuttal:
This is quite impossible because a "scream" can't occur without air in the lungs. A 12 week fetus doesn't have functional lungs. Even a 26-27 week preemie can't scream (it's lungs aren't quite mature enough) and that is WITH "air". Such a preemie can emit weak cries, but still can't scream. This makes very title of the film "The Silent Scream" into nothing but a blatant appeal to emotion (the fetus cries out in pain/fear) rather than an appeal to the only thing that matters, the FACTS.


2. The 12-week fetus can feel pain.

Rebuttal:
At this stage, the brain and nervous system are quite undeveloped. There is beginning of a brain stem (rudimentary thalamus and spinal column). There are few brain cells, meaning that there is little in the way of a cerebral cortex which is absolutely necessary for pain impulses to be received and perceived. Even the few newborn 24-25 week fetuses that survive are far less capable of feeling pain than full term newborns. Here is what the experts say:

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
Statement on Pain of the Fetus

We know of no legitimate scientific information that supports the statement that a fetus experiences pain early in pregnancy.

We do know that the cerebellum attains its final configuration in the seventh month and that mylenization (or covering) of the spinal cord and the brain begins between the 20th and 40th weeks of pregnancy. These, as well as other neurological developments, would have to be in place for the fetus to receive pain.

To feel pain, a fetus needs neurotransmitted hormones. In animals, these complex chemicals develop in the last third of gestation. We know of no evidence that humans are different.

What many may not know is that for a long time, newborns were often given minimal anesthesia (nitrous oxide and curare) for a variety of reasons, one of which was the observation that even neonates (full-term fetuses) STILL can't fully experience pain. However, it was found that use of standard anesthetic protocols (more like those used on adults) gave an improved outcome for neonatal surgery (pain causes stress which produces hormones that reduce the body's recuperative power). This led to a host of studies whose goal was trying to ascertain the time at which a fetus could feel pain and what kind or even if one should use anesthesia on a fetus of a particular age.

From Fetal “Pain” — A Look at the Evidence

Having established the necessary neurobiology for pain is in place and that behavioral responses to noxious stimulation are present in premature babies of approximately 26 weeks gestation, it is logical to suggest a fetus of at least 26 weeks’ gestation will respond similarly to invasive practice as observed in neonates undergoing surgery.
. . . .
Interestingly, even those authors who support a concept of fetal pain tend to back away when confronted with the need to explain pain phenomenology. Giannakoulopoulos et al (1994), for example, distanced themselves from any implied fetal pain experience with the statement, “a hormonal response cannot be equated with the perception of pain.” Lloyd-Thomas and Fitzgerald (1996) have suggested if feeling and pain are properly understood, the fetus cannot be said to feel pain.

A further reason to doubt the viability of fetal pain post-26 weeks’ gestation is the development of the fetal cortex. Although the thalamocortical fibers penetrate the cortical plate at approximately 26 weeks’ gestation, the cortical regions that have been identified as important in processing the various components of pain (Derbyshire, 2000) do not become fully responsive until after birth (Chugani & Phelps, 1986).

Also see Fetal Pain: A Red Herring in the Abortion Debate

3. The 12-week fetus can make "purposeful movements" such as "frantic" movement in an attempt to "flee" from a suction cannula

Rebuttal:
At 12 weeks, fetal movements are reflexive rather than having some "purpose" which implies that the fetus was "thinking" or cognizant (had the ability to know, perceive). That is NOT possible without a cerebral cortex and the fetus at that age doesn't have one. Reflexive reactions are not the products of cognition (conscious awareness). Some examples:

• Anencephalic (absent brain) newborns will withdraw reflexively when touched
• Thumb sucking in utero during pregnancy (the fetus doesn't "decide" to nash that thumb)
• Your knee jerking when the nerve is tapped
• Even a one-celled organism such as an ameoba will withdraw from a probe when touched

4. Filmakers "doctored" the footage...

What really gets my goat is that experts in ultrasonography/film technology have concluded that the videotape of the abortion was deliberately altered, i.e., "slowed down and subsequently speeded up to create an impression of hyperactivity." Not only does this film NOT have it's medical facts straight, it seems that Nathanson and Co. also threw in a few special effects for good measure (reality didn't get them the "effects" they wanted).

Lest one think that only non-Christians find this film to be way out in the propaganda ozone, here Christian site that also has the honesty to expose this film as nothing but the hate-mongering piece it is (why else would any one show it but to instill fear in women and stir up hatred again pro-choicers?)

Movie Silent Scream: Totally Absurd Medically Facts Not Important - Lies Scare Women

Shame on your 4th grade teacher for showing you such bunk.

 

[Scholar in training]

I don't know about every type of abortion, but there is scientific proof that the baby DOES feel pain as far as partial-birth abortion goes.

 

[gladiatrix]

I don't know about every type of abortion, but there is scientific proof that the baby DOES feel pain as far as partial-birth abortion goes.

Citations please....

 

[Scholar in training]

Citations please....

This is a general fact, but OK...

Citation.

 

[Romany]

So? Does that mean we should preserve everything that MIGHT become human at a later date? In that case you shouldnt have sex because the sperm that die could have been humans

The fertilised egg is not gonna turn out a turtle ...it's definitely gonna be a human. There's no MIGHT.

As for sperm, only one naturally fuses with the egg, and this is necessary to ensure fertilisation stays a random process, to ensure in turn genetic variation occurs. Each and every sperm isn't naturally MEANT to live, only one is.

Romany

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

The fertilised egg is not gonna turn out a turtle ...it's definitely gonna be a human. There's no MIGHT.

As for sperm, only one naturally fuses with the egg, and this is necessary to ensure fertilisation stays a random process, to ensure in turn genetic variation occurs. Each and every sperm isn't naturally MEANT to live, only one is.

Romany

The issue is not whether a fertilized egg is alive or has potential of human life, it is over 'consciousness'. This is where the debate occurs.

Also, All sperm is meant to do what sperms does, however only one successful sperm is needed by nature.

 

[Romany]

The issue is not whether a fertilized egg is alive or has potential of human life, it is over 'consciousness'. This is where the debate occurs.

Yeah, I was merely replying to what some other guy had said about my very first post...I know what the debate is about

Also, All sperm is meant to do what sperms does, however only one successful sperm is needed by nature.

uhhhhh...isn't that what I said? That was exactly what I was TRYING to say, at any rate, sorry if it wasn't that clear...?

Romany

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

As for sperm, only one naturally fuses with the egg, and this is necessary to ensure fertilisation stays a random process, to ensure in turn genetic variation occurs. Each and every sperm isn't naturally MEANT to live, only one is.

uhhhhh...isn't that what I said? That was exactly what I was TRYING to say, at any rate, sorry if it wasn't that clear...?Romany

Ok Romany, I just thought you were stating that all sperm was designed to die except for one or something like that which struck me as a very odd statement. That's all. I see now that you meant fertilization.