Abortion: How does it effect your vote

[Matthew_18:14]

It seems funny to me that we, the christian people of this great nation, would support a politician who supports abortion as much as Barack Obama does. Here are a few reasons I won't be voting for Barack Obama.

1.) Opposed partial birth abortion ban. A quote from our presidential candidate, "I am extremely concerned that [Gonazales v. Carhart*] will embolden state legislatures to enact further measures to restrict a woman's right to choose, and that the conservative Supreme Court justices will look for other opportunities to erode Roe v. Wade."
*Note: Gonzales v. Carhart is the April 2007 Supreme Court decision upholding the constitutionality of the federal Partial-Birth Abortion Act.
This was taken from Priests for life voter guide which can be found at priestsforlife.org.

2.) Supports taxpayer funding of abortion.

3.) Opposes parental notification law that would require abortionist to notify at least one parent before performing an abortion.

4.) Opposed protecting abortion survivors.
-He voted three times against a bill in the Illinois State Senate that would have provided protection for babies who survive abortions equal to protection received by babies who are spontaneously born prematurely.

The following quote is froma CDC report on abortion in the United States. "The abortion ratio was 241 legal induced abortions per 1,000 live births." These numbers are from a 2003 report from the CDC. These numbers only include those abortions which are voluntarily reported to the CDC.

These numbers are staggering, yet we would support a presidential candidate who is a vehement supporter of abortion.

Please think about these four bullet points before you vote. Thanks for taking the time to read my post.

 

[Bootstrap]

It seems funny to me that we, the christian people of this great nation, would support a politician who supports abortion as much as Barack Obama does.

I'm pro-life, and I disagree with Obama on this. But I also feel that abortion and gay rights are not the only moral issues facing this country.

I used to lobby with Right to Life. I stopped because they would not lobby for concrete measures to help unwed mothers, who have a 60% chance of living under the poverty line (at least at the time). These days, roughly 50% of women will have an abortion during their lifetime, and 25% of babies are aborted. But the political barriers to banning abortion are extremely strong, and I'd be very surprised to see that happen. And I'm not sure that arresting people is the solution here. My guess is that we can do a lot more to cut back on abortions by giving women real choices, something neither the "pro-choice" or the "pro-life" side have been doing.

The problem with the pro-choice side is that they don't offer a woman much of a choice. The problem with the pro-life side is that they won't do anything to offer a woman much of a life. I'd like to see Christians working hard to offer single mothers real choices that also lead to a real life.

Jonathan

 

[Matthew_18:14]

Jonathan,

I'm a logical person, so I think logically. If murder is wrong, and I think that killing a baby in utero is murder, then it does not matter what social systems we have in place to support mothers. It sounds harsh, but it's just my logical side. I agree that we need systems to help women with children, but just because we don't have these does not make murder right. Therefore I can't vote for a politician that supports the murder of unborn children. Especially a politician like Obama who is such a vehement supporter of abortion.

The next President will probably have the opportunity to select a new Supreme Court Judge and this will have ramifications that will live well beyond the term of our next President. I just can't in good conscience vote for a President who would like to see Roe v. Wade live on forever.

Aaron

 

[Bootstrap]

I'm a logical person, so I think logically. If murder is wrong, and I think that killing a baby in utero is murder, then it does not matter what social systems we have in place to support mothers. It sounds harsh, but it's just my logical side. I agree that we need systems to help women with children, but just because we don't have these does not make murder right. Therefore I can't vote for a politician that supports the murder of unborn children. Especially a politician like Obama who is such a vehement supporter of abortion.

I think we each want to stop as many abortions as possible. We disagree on the best way to do that. Just saying something is illegal doesn't make it stop. Lots of illegal things happen every day in America. If you do manage to make it illegal, how would you plan to enforce it to the point that abortions actually stop?

You may find me illogical, but if the goal is to stop as many abortions as possible, we need to do something concrete to support mothers who choose not to have abortions. If the only alternative we offer to an abortion is to have a 60% chance of living under the poverty line, then even making them illegal probably won't stop them, especially after being legal from 1973 to 2008, with so many doctors believing that abortion is the right way to go. People will do a lot of illegal things to avoid poverty.;

Daycare for those who work or attend college, help in getting community college education in fields like nursing, etc. can help a great deal.

Jonathan

 

[Matthew_18:14]

Jonathan,

I understand what you are saying, but that still does not make murder right. If you start sending doctors to prison for murder I think the number of abortions would decline rapidly. Yes, there will still be people who have abortions (murder is committed every day in this country), but what we are trying to do is tell the country and the world that killing an unborn child is equivalent to murder. As far as I'm concerned it is premeditated on the Doctor's part and the pregnant mother would be an accomplice (this would be determined on a case by case basis). We must learn to forgive, but that does not mean that there are not repercussions for our actions. Abortion is as hard on the Mother as having the child is. Only a sociopath would think otherwise.

Aaron

 

[Bootstrap]

I understand what you are saying, but that still does not make murder right. If you start sending doctors to prison for murder I think the number of abortions would decline rapidly.

Aaron,

I do not think that abortion is right. I do think it is currently legal, and I doubt there is much that a president can do in the short run to change that.

One thing that has changed, in a big way, is that the majority of Americans now support legal abortion - even the majority of Republicans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Public_opinion

It is generally hard to change the law in a direction opposed to the majority opinion. Hence my pessimism on this front. And perhaps one way to help change public opinion is to provide real alternatives to abortion, and show that they can work. Another way to influence public opinion is to show people in desperate situations that we want to help them rather than punish them. And as a Christian, I also think that's in line with the way that Jesus related to sinners and tax collectors.

Yes, there will still be people who have abortions (murder is committed every day in this country), but what we are trying to do is tell the country and the world that killing an unborn child is equivalent to murder. As far as I'm concerned it is premeditated on the Doctor's part and the pregnant mother would be an accomplice (this would be determined on a case by case basis). We must learn to forgive, but that does not mean that there are not repercussions for our actions.

I think that the main American legal tradition before Roe v. Wade treated abortion as manslaughter rather than murder:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Abortion_before_Roe

Would you jail the mother?

Abortion is as hard on the Mother as having the child is. Only a sociopath would think otherwise.

I'm not sure how you're measuring this. I think real data on this question is hard, because neither side of the issue wants to see such studies funded.

Jonathan

 

[Matthew_18:14]

Jonathan,

I do not think that abortion is right. I do think it is currently legal, and I doubt there is much that a president can do in the short run to change that. [Jonathan

I agree with your statement that there isn't much that a president can do to change the matter of abortion in the short run. But this election will have a strong bearing on where the country goes in the future because of the possibility of the election of a new Supreme Court Justice or two. If Obama is elected I'm sure that he will select someone who more closely relates to his views on the world and McCain will do the same. This leads me to believe that we might be able to change the course of this country in regards to abortion.

In regards to your question about whether the mother would go to jail. I think there would be every possibility that they would go to jail, but that that would be handled on a case by case basis. Other people might be included, e.g. the father if they had pushed the mother into getting the abortion. Again, if we are going to say that it is murder I don't see how you can let anyone off of the hook. If someone was to kill a child after it is out of the womb we would expect the same type of punishment. In fact a trial is going on right now because a baby was put in a microwave. Everyone thinks that this is a tragedy and awful and how could anyone do this, but most people have know idea how an abortion is carried out. The dismemberment style of abortion where they reach in with a pair of clamps and try to crush the babies skull, but end up tearing arms and legs from the baby before they finally get to the head is very gruesome, but how many people know this is how they do it (there are other methods that are just as terrible). This is awful and makes me feel sick to my stomach. We would not think of doing this to a child outside of the womb, but as long as there inside it is okay. This is insanity at it's peak. It either is a person, or it is not, but then you cannot send someone to prison for killing a woman and her unborn child if it is not a person. How can there even be an argument. If I can change just one persons mind I would be happy.

Aaron

 

[Bootstrap]

But this election will have a strong bearing on where the country goes in the future because of the possibility of the election of a new Supreme Court Justice or two.
If Obama is elected I'm sure that he will select someone who more closely relates to his views on the world and McCain will do the same. This leads me to believe that we might be able to change the course of this country in regards to abortion.

Aaron,

At one point that would have been one of my main considerations. Right now, I'm equally worried about the unchecked expansion of executive power, the government spying on ordinary American citizens without judicial oversight, the separation of powers, habeus corpus, cruel and unusual punishment and torture, the abuse of executive privilege, and other basic constitutional issues. To me, some of these are moral issues too, and rather fundamental to democracy and freedom as our Constitutional tradition defines them. And I rather expect stare decisis to make it rather tough for *any* Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade at this point. So I'm inclined to vote for the person who is most likely to select a Supreme Court that will protect the Constitutional tradition as a whole.

To me, abortion is not the only moral issue that is important.

We would not think of doing this to a child outside of the womb, but as long as there inside it is okay. This is insanity at it's peak. It either is a person, or it is not, but then you cannot send someone to prison for killing a woman and her unborn child if it is not a person. How can there even be an argument. If I can change just one persons mind I would be happy.

We agree that protecting children, born or unborn, is very important. In a democracy where the majority disagrees with us, where killing unborn children is legal, and where stare decisis means it's very unlikely Roe will be overturned, I think the most effective way to do that is to find really good ways to help unwed mothers build a life for themselves.

And also to actually enforce statutory rape laws. Did you know that the average age of the father of a child born out of wedlock is something like 4 years older than that of the mother? And of course, enforcing child support ruthlessly for fathers of children born out of wedlock .... which is another way of protecting the women involved.

Jonathan

 

[tulc]

Jonathan,



I agree with your statement that there isn't much that a president can do to change the matter of abortion in the short run. But this election will have a strong bearing on where the country goes in the future because of the possibility of the election of a new Supreme Court Justice or two. If Obama is elected I'm sure that he will select someone who more closely relates to his views on the world and McCain will do the same. This leads me to believe that we might be able to change the course of this country in regards to abortion.

Ahhh! This is one of the reasons I left the Republican party, they would bang that abortion drum every time they needed some shock troops to raise some cain and the minute they got what they wanted, "Well the time isn't right yet, sorry, we'll call you the next time we need something."

In regards to your question about whether the mother would go to jail. I think there would be every possibility that they would go to jail, but that that would be handled on a case by case basis. Other people might be included, e.g. the father if they had pushed the mother into getting the abortion. Again, if we are going to say that it is murder I don't see how you can let anyone off of the hook. If someone was to kill a child after it is out of the womb we would expect the same type of punishment. In fact a trial is going on right now because a baby was put in a microwave. Everyone thinks that this is a tragedy and awful and how could anyone do this, but most people have know idea how an abortion is carried out. The dismemberment style of abortion where they reach in with a pair of clamps and try to crush the babies skull, but end up tearing arms and legs from the baby before they finally get to the head is very gruesome, but how many people know this is how they do it (there are other methods that are just as terrible). This is awful and makes me feel sick to my stomach. We would not think of doing this to a child outside of the womb, but as long as there inside it is okay. This is insanity at it's peak. It either is a person, or it is not, but then you cannot send someone to prison for killing a woman and her unborn child if it is not a person. How can there even be an argument. If I can change just one persons mind I would be happy.

Aaron

Truly awful...of course that also doesn't change the fact that by simply helping the mother to be able to have her baby we would also cut out most of the reasons for abortions. I've also never understood how the babies trip down the birth canal changes it from being "a precious gift of God to the world!" to "just another welfare leech trying to suck the life blood of honest American workers!!"
tulc(was always left perplexed by that)

 

[Matthew_18:14]

Right now, I'm equally worried about the unchecked expansion of executive power, the government spying on ordinary American citizens without judicial oversight, the separation of powers, habeus corpus, cruel and unusual punishment and torture, the abuse of executive privilege, and other basic constitutional issues.

Jonathan,

I agree with a lot of things you mention here, but for me it still comes down to the basics. With no right to life, you've got no right to anything else.

I also think that assuming McCain would do the same things that Bush has done is wrong. I don't know that McCain would support torture being that he was tortured in Vietnam and held as a POW for five years. As far as spying on the American people goes I can't say what he would do one way or another. I do know that Obama voted for the Patriot Act as well, so you can't say that he wouldn't push some of the same crappy legislation if he was President. It is sad to think that our population is so ignorant or indifferent that naming the bill the "Patriot Act" is all you have to do to get it passed in the House and the Senate.

Basically it all boils down to this. If the fundamental right to life does not matter to a candidate then what does.

Again, going back to one of my previous posts. Obama does not believe a parent has a right to know when there child is getting an abortion. Now you tell me how that can be right. You can argue that the parent may have been the one to impregnate them, but at the same time they may have been molested by someone else and are now being forced to get an abortion, so that nobody will find out about the child being molested. His support of the family is very lacking and I find this very disturbing.

Aaron

 

[Matthew_18:14]

I've also never understood how the babies trip down the birth canal changes it from being "a precious gift of God to the world!" to "just another welfare leech trying to suck the life blood of honest American workers!!"
tulc(was always left perplexed by that)

Tulc,

You are using political rhetoric for an argument. I'm not the republican party and never claimed to be. I do believe we have to support children after they are born, but sometimes the difference is in how we get there.

Truly awful...of course that also doesn't change the fact that by simply helping the mother to be able to have her baby we would also cut out most of the reasons for abortions.

It makes me cringe when people nonchalantly brush off the mention of how abortions are done. Boy this a wonderful world we live in. I think that all violence is awful and disturbing and that there is too much hate and killing in this world and not enough love. We say, "This child will be a burden on me. Better kill it before it grows. This child will be a burden on society. Better kill it before it grows. This child will be a burden on the world. Better kill it before it grows." Where is the love. It is nowhere to be found. Kill the children and lot God sort them out. I suppose that would make it easier on everyone, because then we would not have to worry about how we would take care of them. Of course we would not have anyone to take care of us when we got older either. No love begets no love.

 

[platzapS]

Jonathan,
Again, going back to one of my previous posts. Obama does not believe a parent has a right to know when there child is getting an abortion. Now you tell me how that can be right. You can argue that the parent may have been the one to impregnate them, but at the same time they may have been molested by someone else and are now being forced to get an abortion, so that nobody will find out about the child being molested. His support of the family is very lacking and I find this very disturbing.

The argument is that no one but the girl herself should be able to decide whether to have an abortion, because the fetus is inside her body and the parents shouldn't have the power to force her to have a baby.

 

[Matthew_18:14]

The argument is that no one but the girl herself should be able to decide whether to have an abortion, because the fetus is inside her body and the parents shouldn't have the power to force her to have a baby.

platzaps,

I think you are wrong (of course). My child would have to have my consent to have any other operation and as far as I know an abortion is an operation. Please let me know if you see it another way.

Aaron

 

[Bootstrap]

Obama does not believe a parent has a right to know when there child is getting an abortion.

Can you please point to what he said in context so I can read the original remarks?

Now you tell me how that can be right. You can argue that the parent may have been the one to impregnate them, but at the same time they may have been molested by someone else and are now being forced to get an abortion, so that nobody will find out about the child being molested.

Provided an abortion is legal, and a woman may have been abused by her parents, resulting in a pregnancy, forcing her to go back to those same parents to get an abortion seems wrong. Ditto for the alternatives I wish we were offering her - she should have a way to create space from her parents and move on, keeping her child, without falling into poverty.

She knows how she got pregnant and what relationship she has with her parents. I don't.

Jonathan

 

[tulc]

Tulc,

You are using political rhetoric for an argument. I'm not the republican party and never claimed to be. I do believe we have to support children after they are born, but sometimes the difference is in how we get there. (emph. added)

I'm sorry, I don't understand the last part, care to explain?

removed because I sound like some sort of "Super Christian!" instead of the sinner that I am. :o
tulc(bad tulc! no coffee, one hour!)

 

[platzapS]

platzaps,

I think you are wrong (of course). My child would have to have my consent to have any other operation and as far as I know an abortion is an operation. Please let me know if you see it another way.

Aaron

You have a good point--minors can't usually get cosmetic surgery without parental consent, so why should they get a different operation?

This thread, however, is (*yet another* rant) about Obama, so we're probably getting off-topic.

 

[Matthew_18:14]

Can you please point to what he said in context so I can read the original remarks?



Provided an abortion is legal, and a woman may have been abused by her parents, resulting in a pregnancy, forcing her to go back to those same parents to get an abortion seems wrong. Ditto for the alternatives I wish we were offering her - she should have a way to create space from her parents and move on, keeping her child, without falling into poverty.

She knows how she got pregnant and what relationship she has with her parents. I don't.

Jonathan

Jonathan,

The following votes speak for themselves.
Voted NO on prohibiting minors crossing state lines for abortion. (Mar 2008)

• Voted NO on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006)
• Voted NO on prohibiting minors crossing state lines for abortion. (Mar 2008)

Both of these are taken from ontheissues.org.

What about the minor who has been molested and is being driven to the abortion clinic by the molester. This could be a family member e.g. an uncle, or it could be someone they know e.g. a teacher. In this circumstance my child would be taken out of state, or in state, and I would not be notified that they were about to undergo surgery. This seems way out of line when they need permission for all other operations.

Aaron

 

[Matthew_18:14]

Tulc,

I'm sorry, I don't understand the last part, care to explain?

I tend to have a more a conservative view when it comes to the way we handle social ills in our country, so I was saying that there is more than one way to skin a cat (pardon the expression).

Hmmm I tend to cringe when people act like no one but them cares about children. I've read the books, seen the films talked to people who have had abortions, I've stood outside clinics in sub-zero weather with signs and tried to talk to women going in, I've been arrested several times for protesting (long before it was considered a badge of honor among some Christians) I've helped support two different CPC in my city, I help support two homeless shelters for homeless women and children and I realized as I got older, it's not enough to be "anti-abortion", if I really want to help I had to commit to being "pro-life". That's why I support politicians who I believe will make a difference in the way this country spends it's money. You look at Obama and see someone who is for abortion, I see someone who could help women not have to choose between her unborn child and the children she already has that she is hard pressed to care for.
tulc(climbs down off soap box, takes a breath, picks up cup of coffee)

I'm sorry if I offended you. I still don't see how voting for a politician who firmly supports abortion is going to help get rid of it. Please enlighten me.

I'd also like to thank you for doing all that you have done. It is certainly more than I have ever done and I offer my sincere gratitude for that.

Aaron

 

[Matthew_18:14]

You have a good point--minors can't usually get cosmetic surgery without parental consent, so why should they get a different operation?

This thread, however, is (*yet another* rant) about Obama, so we're probably getting off-topic.

platzaps,

This is not a rant, but it is a little off the topic of the title of this thread. I'm discussing one of the hot button issues, abortion. I'm trying to figure out why people support abortion knowing that it kills a living person. Please let me know why you feel that is okay to kill a living being. I'm sure you would object if someone decided they wanted to kill you or someone you love, but the baby inside a womb seems to be lacking an advocate.

Aaron

 

[tulc]

Tulc,



I tend to have a more a conservative view when it comes to the way we handle social ills in our country, so I was saying that there is more than one way to skin a cat (pardon the expression).

Ahhh! Thanks, that makes sense.

I'm sorry if I offended you. I still don't see how voting for a politician who firmly supports abortion is going to help get rid of it. Please enlighten me.

My thinking is more along the lines of I don't believe abortion is going to be overturned no matter who they put on the court but if we can remove the root causes for people getting abortions as much as we can we can help eliminate a lot of them. See my point?

I'd also like to thank you for doing all that you have done. It is certainly more than I have ever done and I offer my sincere gratitude for that.

Aaron

You're very welcome bro.
tulc(it's been a blessing talking to you, thanks for reminding me why I love hanging out at CF!)