Abominations.

Carl Emerson

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That is not what I said. I said a siege mentality - the believe that "they" are out to get you, or force you to conform - is unhealthy.

Does that mean that the believers in the underground church in China are 'unhealthy'

I have had the privilege of some contact with them and they seemed very well.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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So the Scriptures, although inspired, have varying authority? So we cant trust the writings of Paul - so when he said 'be ye imitators of me as I am of Christ' he was out of line because Jesus would not have excommunicated the young man... Is that what you mean?
No.

It seems though that you want to place the writings of Paul above the sayings of Jesus by what you said however.

I do recall how Jesus related to the woman who had many husbands though. He didn't act in accordance with what Paul said.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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The only people Jesus drove away were the religious of the day. Here is the woman adulterer, should we stone her? Jesus said, may the person who has not sinned cast the first stone.

Jesus did not cast a stone, but did give her an opportunity to turn her life around after that.
 
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Aussie Pete

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The church is supposed to be a hospital for damaged / sinful people. Why not love sinners, educate them about repentance, and show them Christian example rather than ostracizing them?

The idea of excommunication has been used way too much by churches throughout history. It's difficult to know the exact circumstances in Corinth. It makes sense to excommunicate people who are proud of their sin and teach others to follow their example (this was probably the situation in Corinth), but not just bec of their sin.
Excommunication is a last resort. The pendulum has gone the other way. How often have there been reports of senior ministers being caught in adultery, with financial mismanagement, abuse of their office etc. yet all swept under the carpet. Hiding sin is not the answer. If the individual remains defiant, then there is only one option. We have an in depth counselling and deliverance ministry as well as teaching how to overcome. For sure we do not expect perfect behaviour. No one would qualify to be in the Church if that was the criteria. We do expect people to marry rather than de-facto relationships, to work for a living if at all possible, to avoid divisiveness and to give to those in need, if they have the resources.

Having said that, one reason that the church is such a mess is the reluctance to confront unacceptable behaviour at all levels. The "open door" approach most assemblies adopt allows all kinds of false, deceptive and disruptive individuals to come to meetings. I've seen the damage that can be done and it's not pretty. I prefer the Brethren approach, a gospel meeting open to all for the first part of the meeting, then communion and the meeting of the church. If people get saved in the gospel meeting, they are welcomed in to the next part.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I don't think so. In the parable, the workers can tell the difference between wheat and weeds; they recognise that both are present. It's the master who tells them not to uproot the weeds, lest doing so damage the wheat as well.

That is a point I had not appreciated - thanks for that - see my approach works - we learn from each other !!!

So did Paul violate this principle when he excommunicated the young man???
 
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Aussie Pete

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It's not about God changing/not changing. Society changes and the environment changes, and rights or wrongs can change depending on circumstances.
Really? "Situation ethics", I believe it's called. Society indeed changes, but that does not make wrong right or evil good. Only God's standard is acceptable and that does not change.
 
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Carl Emerson

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No.

It seems though that you want to place the writings of Paul above the sayings of Jesus by what you said however.

I do recall how Jesus related to the woman who had many husbands though. He didn't act in accordance with what Paul said.

This was before the church was born.

Jesus was talking to a repentant adulterer likewise the woman at the well was repentant.

The young man was openly defying Gods ways and not repentant. Paul felt that releasing him from the blessings of the kingdom would turn him around, and he was right.
 
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Aussie Pete

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That is a point I had not appreciated - thanks for that - see my approach works - we learn from each other !!!

So did Paul violate this principle when he excommunicated the young man???
No. Paul warned against people who spread false teaching, who were immoral or divisive. I do not accept that the parable of the wheat and tares means that it is open slather in the body of Christ. Paul handed some over to Satan. Not exactly the "leave them alone until the very last hour" concept. The church is made of "living stones". Who would build a house partly of solid stone but with rotting wood incorporated into the structure? A building is as strong as its weakest part. So the body of Christ is just that, a spiritual building. A "stone" may not be a good fit at first, but as long as it is alive, God will cause it to fit in. (1 Peter 2:5)
 
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Aussie Pete

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The only people Jesus drove away were the religious of the day. Here is the woman adulterer, should we stone her? Jesus said, may the person who has not sinned cast the first stone.

Jesus did not cast a stone, but did give her an opportunity to turn her life around after that.
Lord Jesus told the woman that He did not condemn her. How nice. People seem to forget that He also said, "Sin no more". Lord Jesus was named "Jesus" because He would save His people from their sins. To save also means to deliver. Christians should be experiencing progressive freedom from all that hinders their walk with Christ. Sure, it's a lifetime project and Christians will fail from time to time. But in no way should Christians live a knowingly sinful lifestyle.
 
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Carl Emerson

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No. Paul warned against people who spread false teaching, who were immoral or divisive. I do not accept that the parable of the wheat and tares means that it is open slather in the body of Christ. Paul handed some over to Satan. Not exactly the "leave them alone until the very last hour" concept. The church is made of "living stones". Who would build a house partly of solid stone but with rotting wood incorporated into the structure? A building is as strong as its weakest part. So the body of Christ is just that, a spiritual building. A "stone" may not be a good fit at first, but as long as it is alive, God will cause it to fit in. (1 Peter 2:5)

Sounds like we agree on this in general terms, but might have different takes on when and how to implement it.

Have you had to exercise this action?

Do you tolerate the immoral in your midst and insist they desist?

I would also like to hear Paidiske respond...
 
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Aussie Pete

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Sounds like we agree on this in general terms, but might have different takes on when and how to implement it.

Have you had to exercise this action?

Do you tolerate the immoral in your midst and insist they desist?

I would also like to hear Paidiske respond...
We have told people living as man and wife that they need to marry legally - 3 couples in all. They agreed that it was necessary. We have had to tell people that they are no longer welcome at the meetings. It's difficult, especially as we are a small fellowship and one missing person is noticeable. I believe that the Church generally has lost the plot (at least in the Western world). The gospel is the gospel of the Kingdom, not a "get out of hell free" card like some cosmic monopoly game. People need to be prepared for Kingdom living. If the Church is little different from the world (and that's true in too many ways), why should the world take notice of the gospel? I'm far from a legalist, as you will know from previous discussions. Yet the Lord wants us to live in a way that shames the world and convicts unbelievers of sin.
 
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eleos1954

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Now you're talking about works based salvation.

It's about faith, the people from the old testament were saved when Jesus travelled to the land of the dead because of the faith, not because of adherence to a law.

Because of their faith, they were able to hear Him, everyone else who relied in idols or idolized the law became like their mute idols and could not hear Him.

no I'm not .... I'm talking about people that aren't mentioned in the bible .... example early american indians and such .... you think the Lord is just going to cast away all those people ... people like that?
 
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Gregory Thompson

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This was before the church was born.

Jesus was talking to a repentant adulterer likewise the woman at the well was repentant.

The young man was openly defying Gods ways and not repentant. Paul felt that releasing him from the blessings of the kingdom would turn him around, and he was right.
The guy from 1st Corinthians is not the guy from 2nd Corinthians.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Lord Jesus told the woman that He did not condemn her. How nice. People seem to forget that He also said, "Sin no more". Lord Jesus was named "Jesus" because He would save His people from their sins. To save also means to deliver. Christians should be experiencing progressive freedom from all that hinders their walk with Christ. Sure, it's a lifetime project and Christians will fail from time to time. But in no way should Christians live a knowingly sinful lifestyle.
When Jesus said sin no more, that was His invitation to turn her life around.

I understand people ignore that part, which is why I commented on it.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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no I'm not .... I'm talking about people that aren't mentioned in the bible .... example early american indians and such .... you think the Lord is just going to cast away all those people ... people like that?
Jesus went down to the place of the dead, those who had ears to hear listened, those who had eyes to see followed Him out of there.
 
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CatsRule2020

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Hi there,

What relevance do the Old Covenant Abominations have in the New Covenant?

If God does not change, do these sins have greater consequence today?

Why did they get little mention at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15)

I appreciate your responses.
There are mainly 3 different Old Testament Hebrew words all translated into the English as (Abomination).
The Hebrew word most often used in the Old Testament, especially Leviticus 18:22 thru Deut. 27:15, is Toebah. It is used of things made impure and illicit by the decrees of religion.

The second word Sheqets is less defined than it's sister word Shiqquts. This is the word every unstudied Christian and non-Christian think every translated word 'Abomination' means!:doh:
Towebah is far from this meaning. This word Shiqquts meant; 'filthy' 'disgusting' and of things such as garments. Most things not associated with religion.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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What makes you think that?
The text does not say it is. I've heard the pulpit paint that story, but it is not necessarily true. Since there was some time between when the 1st letter and 2nd letter was written, it is possible the person from the 1st letter could have passed away by then due to short life spans.
 
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Aussie Pete

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When Jesus said sin no more, that was His invitation to turn her life around.

I understand people ignore that part, which is why I commented on it.
It was not an invitation. It was a command.
 
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