Abominations.

[Gregory Thompson]

It was not an invitation. It was a command.

I disagree.

 

[Ananias]

I disagree.

Read the Greek. It was given as an imperative directive. (But also: the pericope adulterae may not belong in the scripture; many early manuscripts don't have it. So I personally don't use those verses to prove any kind of doctrinal point.)

 

[SANTOSO]

But if you try to do this around gender preference and lifestyle you are in danger of being charged with discrimination?

I understand that kind of laws and regulations are trying to be used to offend and make the church stumble. However, we have this comfort, that is, this promise that give us life:

But the LORD is with me as a dread warrior; therefore my persecutors will stumble; they will not overcome me. They will be greatly shamed, for they will not succeed. Their eternal dishonor will never be forgotten. -Jeremiah 20:11

Do you remember when the disciples have told Jesus THIS:
The disciples said to him, "Rabbi, the Jews were just now seeking to stone you, and are you going there again?" -John 11:8
Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he DOES NOT STUMBLE, because he sees the light of this world. -John 11:9

 

[Andrewn]

How often have there been reports of senior ministers being caught in adultery, with financial mismanagement, abuse of their office etc. yet all swept under the carpet. Hiding sin is not the answer. If the individual remains defiant, then there is only one option. We have an in depth counselling and deliverance ministry as well as teaching how to overcome.

The "open door" approach most assemblies adopt allows all kinds of false, deceptive and disruptive individuals to come to meetings. I've seen the damage that can be done and it's not pretty.

Paul warned against people who spread false teaching, who were immoral or divisive

I wrote, "It makes sense to excommunicate people who are proud of their sin and teach others to follow their example (this was probably the situation in Corinth), but not just bec of their sin." The examples you gave about senior ministers and disruptive individuals would be in agreement with what I said. I hope your intention is not broader.

Mat 5:19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever does and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I prefer the Brethren approach, a gospel meeting open to all for the first part of the meeting, then communion and the meeting of the church. If people get saved in the gospel meeting, they are welcomed in to the next part.

I guess that is OK. The 2nd part of the meeting can be considered a closed meeting of those who are members.

But, we may be talking about apples and oranges. While I have in mind a church of at least 150 Sunday attendees, you may be talking about a small group, which can be easily disrupted by the presence of a person who does not share their convictions. Such a group can simply put a sign saying, "All sinless people are welcome."

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Read the Greek. It was given as an imperative directive. (But also: the pericope adulterae may not belong in the scripture; many early manuscripts don't have it. So I personally don't use those verses to prove any kind of doctrinal point.)

Because of the manuscript issue, I've had to test out the variants to see the fruit of the different renditions of verses and their various interpretations. I disagree it is to be applied as a command due to the fruit.

When reading I must consider the application of the verse, and the effect said application will have on my Spiritual being.

Treating every scripture like it is a command generally is the attitude of the Elder Son in the Prodigal Son story. However, the point of application is to develop the heart of the Father in that story. Since the story in question is very "Prodigal Daughter" I must view it in this context.

I guess I could view it differently, but do I want to be judged without mercy?

 

[Ananias]

Because of the manuscript issue, I've had to test out the variants to see the fruit of the different renditions of verses and their various interpretations. I disagree it is to be applied as a command due to the fruit.

When reading I must consider the application of the verse, and the effect said application will have on my Spiritual being.

Treating every scripture like it is a command generally is the attitude of the Elder Son in the Prodigal Son story. However, the point of application is to develop the heart of the Father in that story. Since the story in question is very "Prodigal Daughter" I must view it in this context.

I guess I could view it differently, but do I want to be judged without mercy?

I don't consider the pericope adulterae to be a particularly useful verse, and not only because it may be apocryphal. I've always read it as yet another of Jesus' teachings on the sinfulness of pious hypocrisy, but there are many passages that are more reliable and make the same point. People too often take this story as an example of Jesus' unlimited mercy towards sinners ("neither do I condemn you") rather than forgiveness and a command to repent and reform ("now go your way and sin no more"). In no way is Christ sanctioning her behavior.

 

[Junia]

Excommunication is a last resort. The pendulum has gone the other way. How often have there been reports of senior ministers being caught in adultery, with financial mismanagement, abuse of their office etc. yet all swept under the carpet. Hiding sin is not the answer. If the individual remains defiant, then there is only one option. We have an in depth counselling and deliverance ministry as well as teaching how to overcome. For sure we do not expect perfect behaviour. No one would qualify to be in the Church if that was the criteria. We do expect people to marry rather than de-facto relationships, to work for a living if at all possible, to avoid divisiveness and to give to those in need, if they have the resources.

Having said that, one reason that the church is such a mess is the reluctance to confront unacceptable behaviour at all levels. The "open door" approach most assemblies adopt allows all kinds of false, deceptive and disruptive individuals to come to meetings. I've seen the damage that can be done and it's not pretty. I prefer the Brethren approach, a gospel meeting open to all for the first part of the meeting, then communion and the meeting of the church. If people get saved in the gospel meeting, they are welcomed in to the next part.

I like the sound of the Brethren style meeting format.

 

[Junia]

no it's not universalism ... not saying everyone gets saved ... of course not.

So all of the OT prophets and people who lived before Jesus won't be in heaven? Adam & Eve won't be there? .... all those before Jesus? Baloney.

We have many stories about people in the Bible ... mostly centered around the Israelites ... who were typical of mankind in general .... ie disobedient (mankind don't change) .... however I have no doubt many people (multitudes) (not all) who were not written about will be in heaven ... looking forward to their stories and how the Lord made His presence known to them.

People are not saved because they were born before Jesus? Just their tuff luck they weren't born afterwards ... or lived in a geographical location that didn't have the gospel available to them? Is our Lord arbitrary and capricious? No He is not.

He looks at the heart .... He knows the heart .... from beginning to end of all people throughout all the ages ... past and yet to come.

Matthew 5:8
“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Proverbs 21:2
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart.

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus (Romans 2:12-16).

We know for sure Elijah and Moses are in Heaven from the gospel account of the transliteration

and Samuel. Because of what the witch of endor and Saul saw

 

[nolidad]

We covered this issue earlier in the thread...

The abominations divide into two groups.

See Post #2

Then for me it is a settled issue.

What may be an abomination for Israel, may not be for the church! We live under a different covenant.

 

[Ananias]

Then for me it is a settled issue.

What may be an abomination for Israel, may not be for the church! We live under a different covenant.

The old covenant still holds in Moral Law. Ceremonial Law (e.g., circumcision, dietary laws) is no longer in effect after the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross. Christ's sacrifice fulfilled the ceremonial law because Jesus himself became the ultimate sacrifice and his body became the new Temple. But the Old Testament Moral Law remains in full effect.

Jesus himself affirms this: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." (Matthew 5:17-18)

 

[Junia]

We know for sure Elijah and Moses are in Heaven from the gospel account of the transliteration

and Samuel. Because of what the witch of endor and Saul saw

,

Transfiguration

 

[nolidad]

The old covenant still holds in Moral Law. Ceremonial Law (e.g., circumcision, dietary laws) is no longer in effect after the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross. Christ's sacrifice fulfilled the ceremonial law because Jesus himself became the ultimate sacrifice and his body became the new Temple. But the Old Testament Moral Law remains in full effect.

Jesus himself affirms this: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." (Matthew 5:17-18)

The division's you make are man made divisions long after the 613 Mosaic Laws were issued!

But you even said- Jesus fulfilled ALL the law ! If something is fulfilled it is rendered moot.

And as for the ten commandments?

2 Cor. 3:
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

The ten commandments do not minister life-but death. that was their purpose- to drive people to faith in Christ!

I do not commit murder because teh ten commandments say not to- but because the new covenant which is what we live by says not to! ETc.etc.etc.

 

[1213]

...
What relevance do the Old Covenant Abominations have in the New Covenant?

If God does not change, do these sins have greater consequence today?
...

If God says something is an abomination, then I think it is so, until God changes it. And by what I know, God has not changed what abominations are.
But, I think many things can be forgiven and there is not necessary consequence.

 

[Ananias]

But you even said- Jesus fulfilled ALL the law ! If something is fulfilled it is rendered moot.

Jesus said: "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

All has not been accomplished until the Last Day when Christ arrives in glory and gives his final judgement.

We know the Apostles still hold to the scriptural authority of the Old Testament because they quote from it and refer to it constantly (~250 times!) to support their teachings in the New Testament. If the old Law had been rendered moot, as you say, they wouldn't have done that.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I don't consider the pericope adulterae to be a particularly useful verse, and not only because it may be apocryphal. I've always read it as yet another of Jesus' teachings on the sinfulness of pious hypocrisy, but there are many passages that are more reliable and make the same point. People too often take this story as an example of Jesus' unlimited mercy towards sinners ("neither do I condemn you") rather than forgiveness and a command to repent and reform ("now go your way and sin no more"). In no way is Christ sanctioning her behavior.

The above interpretation appears to intentionally miss the redemptive quality of the passage.

 

[Ananias]

The above interpretation appears to intentionally miss the redemptive quality of the passage.

It's not clear to me that it is redemptive. We only know what he told the woman; we don't know if she reformed and came to Christ. (You're free to infer things about that passage, but the text is silent on that issue.) The teaching in the pericope is primarily about Jesus' dislike of pious hypocrisy. It doesn't have much to say about adultery except that it's sinful ("go and sin no more"), which we already knew.

I can only say again: I don't recommend using this passage to prove any doctrinal point. There are many passages in scripture more suitable (and better attested) to whatever issue is under discussion.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It's not clear to me that it is redemptive. We only know what he told the woman; we don't know if she reformed and came to Christ. (You're free to infer things about that passage, but the text is silent on that issue.) The teaching in the pericope is primarily about Jesus' dislike of pious hypocrisy. It doesn't have much to say about adultery except that it's sinful ("go and sin no more"), which we already knew.

I can only say again: I don't recommend using this passage to prove any doctrinal point. There are many passages in scripture more suitable (and better attested) to whatever issue is under discussion.

Your argument isn't really compelling.

But i've taken in what you've said, thanks for sharing.

 

[eleos1954]

Jesus went down to the place of the dead, those who had ears to hear listened, those who had eyes to see followed Him out of there.

I've heard of that belief ... I don't buy into it ... His word is clear .... all are dormant in the grave until His return .... so agree to disagree.

Many many verses on sleeping in the grave .. here's just a few

Ecclesiastes 9:5

For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

Psalms 6:5

New King James Version
For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?

Psalm 115:17

The dead do not praise the Lord,
Nor do any who go down into silence;

1 Thessalonians 4:14

For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

Daniel 12:2

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I've heard of that belief ... I don't buy into it ... His word is clear .... all are dormant in the grave until His return .... so agree to disagree.

Many many verses on sleeping in the grave .. here's just a few

Ecclesiastes 9:5

For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

Psalms 6:5

New King James Version
For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?

Psalm 115:17

The dead do not praise the Lord,
Nor do any who go down into silence;

1 Thessalonians 4:14

For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

Daniel 12:2

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Believe what you want, but scripture does say He preached to the dead.

Anyone who died after that is subject to their own conscience as Paul said.

Romans 2
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Da 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The judgment for those not in the book of life, will be a judgment of their own heart's conscience, God opens up and reads hearts like a book.

Much like the judgement in the Garden, that ended up as a big blame game, so will the judgment be.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

When Jesus said sin no more, that was His invitation to turn her life around.

I understand people ignore that part, which is why I commented on it.

I agree completely. I would, however, point out that Jesus command (and it was a command) was to stop sinning in both a specific sense and a broad sense. Obviously Jesus did not expect this woman to go with out any sin for the rest of her life. But it WAS a call to repentance, which was Jesus primary message.