Abominations.

[Carl Emerson]

Hi there,

What relevance do the Old Covenant Abominations have in the New Covenant?

If God does not change, do these sins have greater consequence today?

Why did they get little mention at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15)

I appreciate your responses.

 

[HTacianas]

Hi there,

What relevance do the Old Covenant Abominations have in the New Covenant?

If God does not change, do these sins have greater consequence today?

Why did they get little mention at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15)

I appreciate your responses.

Ii's helpful to look at the penalties for "abominations" in the old testament. For instance, eating a catfish:

Lev 11:12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Compared to homosexuality:

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

They are both abominations, but there is no punishment specified for someone who eats a catfish. It's a ritual defilement. Homosexuality however is punishable by death:

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

It's the origin of mortal and venial sin. One is punishable by death, i.e., mortal, while the other is not. Those ritual defilements did not make their way into Christianity.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Ii's helpful to look at the penalties for "abominations" in the old testament. For instance, eating a catfish:

Lev 11:12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Compared to homosexuality:

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

They are both abominations, but there is no punishment specified for someone who eats a catfish. It's a ritual defilement. Homosexuality however is punishable by death:

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

It's the origin of mortal and venial sin. One is punishable by death, i.e., mortal, while the other is not. Those ritual defilements did not make their way into Christianity.

Hi there,

Thanks for that.

And the young man Paul excommunicated, was he committing an abomination do you think?

 

[HTacianas]

Hi there,

Thanks for that.

And the young man Paul excommunicated, was he committing an abomination do you think?

If you mean the man spoken of at 1 Corinthians 5, yes. He was in a sexual relationship with a woman who had previously been in a sexual relationship with his father. Whether she had been married to the father or not is unknown:

Lev 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

It's something particularly detestable. Spoken of by Amos the prophet:

Amo 2:7 ...and a man and his father will go in unto the same maid, to profane my holy name:

 

[honey badger]

Hi there,

What relevance do the Old Covenant Abominations have in the New Covenant?

If God does not change, do these sins have greater consequence today?

Why did they get little mention at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15)

I appreciate your responses.

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),

you can not flee what you can not see ...

 

[Carl Emerson]

If you mean the man spoken of at 1 Corinthians 5, yes. He was in a sexual relationship with a woman who had previously been in a sexual relationship with his father. Whether she had been married to the father or not is unknown:

Lev 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

It's something particularly detestable. Spoken of by Amos the prophet:

Amo 2:7 ...and a man and his father will go in unto the same maid, to profane my holy name:

So there are two classifications of abominations and the ones with severe punishments in the OT warrant excommunication in the NT it seems - Yes??

 

[Carl Emerson]

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),

you can not flee what you can not see ...

I am not exactly sure what point you are trying to make HB...

 

[Aussie Pete]

Hi there,

What relevance do the Old Covenant Abominations have in the New Covenant?

If God does not change, do these sins have greater consequence today?

Why did they get little mention at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15)

I appreciate your responses.

The Jews who became Christians were well aware of what God calls abominations. No one had to tell them! As far as unbelievers are concerned, they are under sentence of death no matter what they do, "good" or "bad". Bad teaching is as much what is left out as what is incorrect or wrongly emphasised. Lord Jesus did not preach the gospel of "go to heaven when you die" or "God has a wonderful plan for your life". He preached the gospel of the Kingdom of God and ordered (yes, ordered) His disciples to do like wise. Paul wrote to the Corinthians warning them of sinful lifestyles that would disqualify Christians from entering the Kingdom of God.

Unbelievers suffer the consequences of their sin in this life and, unless they repent and believe, carry that judgement to the next. (Romans 1). Believers who refuse to give up their sinful lifestyle disqualify themselves from God's kingdom. The tragedy is that few Christians know what the Kingdom of God is and few live in Kingdom power and victory. This has to change, because Lord Jesus is coming back for a glorious and victorious body.

 

[HTacianas]

So there are two classifications of abominations and the ones with severe punishments in the OT warrant excommunication in the NT it seems - Yes??

As a general rule, yes.

 

[honey badger]

I am not exactly sure what point you are trying to make HB...

to understand where the abomination is ... is to understand what it is, and why it provokes God to jealousy ...

 

[Carl Emerson]

The Jews who became Christians were well aware of what God calls abominations. No one had to tell them! As far as unbelievers are concerned, they are under sentence of death no matter what they do, "good" or "bad". Bad teaching is as much what is left out as what is incorrect or wrongly emphasised. Lord Jesus did not preach the gospel of "go to heaven when you die" or "God has a wonderful plan for your life". He preached the gospel of the Kingdom of God and ordered (yes, ordered) His disciples to do like wise. Paul wrote to the Corinthians warning them of sinful lifestyles that would disqualify Christians from entering the Kingdom of God.

Unbelievers suffer the consequences of their sin in this life and, unless they repent and believe, carry that judgement to the next. (Romans 1). Believers who refuse to give up their sinful lifestyle disqualify themselves from God's kingdom. The tragedy is that few Christians know what the Kingdom of God is and few live in Kingdom power and victory. This has to change, because Lord Jesus is coming back for a glorious and victorious body.

OK... So the young man who was excommunicated, was so dealt with so that his soul would be saved. Does this mean that he misses out on the kingdom blessings but not his salvation?
I am assuming that if he repented he would be welcomed back into the fold.

However the gentiles coming to salvation would not have such a knowledge of the abominations - for this reason I wondered why they were not mentioned more in the Jerusalem council.

 

[Carl Emerson]

to understand where the abomination is ... is to understand what it is, and why it provokes God to jealousy ...

Do you mean the one who commits them elevates himself above God ??

 

[Carl Emerson]

As a general rule, yes.

OK that makes sense to me - we just have to keep in mind that Jesus extended forgiveness to the woman caught in adultery so this relates to Paul allowing the repentant young man back?

 

[Aussie Pete]

OK... So the young man who was excommunicated, was so dealt with so that his soul would be saved. Does this mean that he misses out on the kingdom blessings but not his salvation?
I am assuming that if he repented he would be welcomed back into the fold.

However the gentiles coming to salvation would not have such a knowledge of the abominations - for this reason I wondered why they were not mentioned more in the Jerusalem council.

The young man was restored so he may well have gone onto living the Kingdom life. Otherwise, yes, he would miss out on Kingdom blessings and rewards. I've no doubt that the apostles preaching and teaching would include what is sin in God's eyes.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The young man was restored so he may well have gone onto living the Kingdom life. Otherwise, yes, he would miss out on Kingdom blessings and rewards. I've no doubt that the apostles preaching and teaching would include what is sin in God's eyes.

OK that makes sense.

So a church that excommunicates in similar circumstances today would likely come under political pressure - even legal pressure to restore the one if he repented or not...

 

[honey badger]

Do you mean the one who commits them elevates himself above God ??

yes ... understanding that the abomination which makes desolate is this son of perdition or man of sin, as in an image of truth/self which is a lie ....

an abomination is any thought seeded by a serpent ...

 

[Carl Emerson]

So at what point does a church consider functioning 'underground' like in China?
We have in our country a government with the strongest 'rainbow' presence of any country in the world with intent to firm up political and legal instruments like 'hate speech' which will force the inclusion of anyone regardless of their moral lifestyle.
Now one reason why the church will struggle to deal with this is because they have assumed to present church meetings as public gatherings rather than private. The early church gatherings were so filled with God's presence that folks in sin would be afraid to join. Sadly we don't consider such fundamental issues and insist on a door's open policy. This coupled with a lack of the Fear of God in the church is a recipe for serious problems.
Feel free to disagree.
I do think there is a place for public meetings associated with outreach like on Mars hill, but even the temple was privately regulated and the public could not wander around wherever they liked.
Somehow quite early on there was a transition from the intensely close and uncompromising fellowship of the elect, and a more open public meeting that non believers would attend.
I am guessing that as pressure increases, a return to this mode may need to be considered.

 

[Aussie Pete]

OK that makes sense.

So a church that excommunicates in similar circumstances today would likely come under political pressure - even legal pressure to restore the one if he repented or not...

I'm not sure about that. As far as I know, no one has the legal right to attend a church. It's not a business. Our fellowship has told people that they are no longer welcome. It's hard, but it is for their good as well as a witness to young Christians. If they repent, they are welcome to come back.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I'm not sure about that. As far as I know, no one has the legal right to attend a church. It's not a business. Our fellowship has told people that they are no longer welcome. It's hard, but it is for their good as well as a witness to young Christians. If they repent, they are welcome to come back.

But if you try to do this around gender preference and lifestyle you are in danger of being charged with discrimination?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Hi there,

What relevance do the Old Covenant Abominations have in the New Covenant?

If God does not change, do these sins have greater consequence today?

Why did they get little mention at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15)

I appreciate your responses.

Since Jesus came, the bar regarding what sin is raised.

In the old testament it was a list of offenses only good for behavioral modification.

This type of teaching is explained by the new testament writings as "taste not, touch not, handle not" and has no value for restraining sensual indulgence.

So the understanding of what an abomination is, is related to the quality of the sin internally.

The old testament teachings only cover the outward appearance, but Jesus taught to clean the inside of the cup so that the outside may also be clean.

So say someone goes about cleaning the inside of the cup as instructed and then his life is a mess due to the impurities being dislodged, is badgering someone who is being sanctified in this manner something God would do, or Satan would do?

How do you know?

So the old testament way of looking at things was because the old testament people could not receive the Holy Spirit like we could - so expecting an inward focus was a tad unrealistic.

Since we are given more now, more is expected.

Name calling doesn't result in repentance, Kindness does see Romans 2:4 and context.

(because pretending to comply so the bully will go away is not repentance)