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solid_core

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Jesus was not talking about some more than 2,000 years distant future, but about his generation, about his disciples.

Its clear from the context.
 
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TLSITD

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Jesus was not talking about some more than 2,000 years distant future, but about his generation, about his disciples.

Its clear from the context.
You are correct; but there is more than one fulfillment of that prophecy/scripture. The first has already taken place, the second not yet.
 
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BrotherD

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Makes what desolate?

The church/woman.

Revelation 17:1-2
[1]And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:
[2]With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Fornicating with the kings of the earth make the woman desolate.
 
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BrotherD

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It's not a dual application. Jesus uses Antiochus as a metaphor.

The abomination that maketh desolate happened in 508 when the Papacy used king Clovis to destroy/uproot one of the three horns.
 
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Douggg

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Fornicating with the kings of the earth make the woman desolate.

Here is what makes the woman desolate. It appears as though the ten kings will burn the Vatican to the ground, once the person has become the beast.

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

___________________________________________________

The abomination of desolation is something else. It stands in a holy place. Which is in the sanctuary. And will be the statue image of the beast placed in the temple, and shortly thereafter incarnated by Satan when he is cast down to earth for the time, times, half time.
 
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Douggg

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BrotherD

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The reason there is alot of confusion of bible prophecy is because most people believe some of the time prophecies need to be fulfilled, but all are as of 1844. The 3 and a half year tribulation or better know as the last week in Daniel 9:24 has already passed in 34Ad with the stoning of Stephen. Those 490 years was the probation time for the Jews but they rejected mercy.
 
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BrotherD

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The time, times and half a times has already passed. Revelation 13 shows that after that 1260 days/years have passed then the lamblike beast comes out of the earth. That beast is known as the USA.
 
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Douggg

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The time, times and half a times has already passed. Revelation 13 shows that after that 1260 days/years have passed then the lamblike beast comes out of the earth

How does Revelation 13 show that?

The false prophet i.e the second beast, and the beast are both cast alive into the lake of fire at Jesus's Return.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
 
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BrotherD

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The forty and two months ended when the Papacy was captured by Napoleon's general. Revelation is alot of repeat and expand, repeat and expand. Just like in the book of Daniel.
 
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Douggg

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The forty and two months ended when the Papacy was captured by Napoleon's general. Revelation is alot of repeat and expand, repeat and expand. Just like in the book of Daniel.
Was that person cast alive into the lake of fire by Jesus? And did Jesus's return take place back then?
 
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Davy

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The premise of the OP is completely un-Biblical according to its timelines. The "abomination of desolation" event Jesus forewarned of certainly... has NOT happened yet today.

In 165 B.C., Antiochus Epiphanes took Jerusalem with an army, went inside the 2nd temple and sacrificed swine upon the altar, and then setup an idol abomination to Zeus, demanding all to worship it. But that was about 200 years prior... to Jesus warning about the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel. And the 2nd temple burned down in 70 A.D. before the Romans could get control of it (per Jewish historian Josephus who lived in the year 100 A.D.)

Antiochus did not fulfill the Daniel 11 Scripture, which Historicists and Preterists like to falsely promote.

Antiochus didn't take Jerusalem using peace. And he didn't make a 7 year league in Jerusalem with the Jews. An officer of Antiochus, Apollonius, went through the country with an army and entered Jerusalem with orders to slay and destroy, and end the practice of Judaism. The Syrians took the city of David, and made it their fortress, controlling the city. Then Antiochus desecrated the temple by stealing its artifacts, and then sacrificing swine on the altar and setting up Zeus idol worship.

The Daniel 11 events by the "vile person" involves the Daniel 9:27 event of making of a covenant for "one week" (7 years), and in the middle of the week ending sacrifices and placing the idol abomination of desolation in the sanctuary. The "league" of Daniel 11 that the "vile person" makes with a small people in Jerusalem, is that Dan.9:27 covenant. The league involves the re-establishing of temple worship with sacrifices at the end of this world.

The "vile person" of Daniel 11 represents the coming Antichrist to Jerusalem in our near future. The idol worship he will setup is shown at the end of Revelation 13 with the "image of the beast", as he will be the "another beast" mentioned there, which is about a 2nd beast, a single person that will work great signs and miracles, raining fire down to earth in the sight of men. That coming Antichrist is still future.

And since the 2nd temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D. and they did not fulfill the AOD, and another Jewish temple has never been built to this day, we know there will be another temple built for the end of this world to fulfill the "abomination of desolation" prophecy. A standing Jewish temple is... required to fulfill it, simply because the AOD is about the placing of an idol abomination inside the temple at Jerusalem in false worship.
 
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chevyontheriver

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It's Strongs 105 (Bird of prey) it can be eagle or vulture depending on the context. You are right eagles don't eat corpses. So the text strongly supports vultures.
Bald eagles do eat road kill. As do red tailed hawks. I've seen it myself.
 
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Davy

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Most translations use the word "vultures", because they (rightly so) are surprised by the word "eagle" here. Eagles do not eat corpses, vultures do.

But Jesus (or the gospel authors) knew Jesus was talking about Romans. Thats why "eagles" are there.

In connection with Paul's warning in 2 Corinthians 11 about Satan's servants transformed as "ministers of righteousness" and Satan himself transformed as "an angel of light", I see the "eagles" having another symbolic meaning.

In the OT, the eagle was used both by God for Himself, and about Satan, but in the sense of his exalting himself. Satan's original rebellion was afterall about coveting God's throne, wanting to be GOD.

And because our Lord Jesus warned about a coming pseudo-Messiah working great signs and wonders that would almost deceive even Christ's very elect, and Paul covered this point also about the falling away to the "man of sin" in Jerusalem is coming to exalt himself as God, then the 'eagles' idea actually fits this scenario.

The deceived who will 'seek' to be gathered by Messiah will not wait for the true Messiah (Jesus) who comes afterwards. They will be deceived and think this first Messiah, a pseudo-Messiah our Lord warned us about, will be Christ, but it won't be. Thus they will be gathered wheresoever the 'eagles' (fake eagles) are.
 
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jgr

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Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


It was the Roman armies, bearing pagan ensigns considered abominations by the Jews, advancing upon the holy city of Jerusalem to wreak its desolation in 70 AD; who were the abomination of desolation.

These were the fulfillment of the Daniel 9:27 abominations (Roman armies) with which he (Messiah) made it (Jerusalem) desolate, the confirming prophecy of the Roman armies which were Messiah's instruments of judgment, destruction, and desolation.
 
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BABerean2

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During 167 BC, Antiochus Epiphanes killed thousands of Jews, and stopped the temple sacrifices.
He also had a pig sacrificed on the altar, and had a statue set up in the sanctuary. After he was defeated the temple was cleansed, and rededicated. The Jews of Jesus time "understood" this because they celebrated Hanukkah every year.


From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.



John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
 
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klutedavid

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No it's not.

The desolation of the temple is what Luke talks about and what Daniel refers to.

Luke in chapter 21 just refers to the desolation or destruction of the temple.

Luke 21:20
But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

The temple and Jerusalem are ruined, desolate, and that is an abomination.
 
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Davy

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Antiochus Epiphanes did not fulfill the Daniel 11 Scripture about the "vile person". He can serve as a 'partial' blueprint, but he didn't fulfill all the parameters of the prophecy.

The "vile person" of Daniel 11 is to come to power using peace. Antiochus didn't do this. His army under Apollonius was commanded to slay and destroy, which is what he did in taking Jerusalem by force. They also took the city of David and setup defenses there, and controlled Jerusalem from there. Antiochus then went into the temple and desolated by removing its artifacts and sacrificing swine and setting up an idol abomination to Zeus. Nor did Antiochus make any 'covenant' or 'league' with those in Jerusalem, which is part of the Dan.11 prophecy of the "vile person".

So Josephus assumed Antiochus IV did all those things written in the Dan.11 prophecy, but he didn't. Yet Antiochus IV does serve as a partial fulfillment of the Daniel prophecy, because he did do some of those things written in Daniel 11.
 
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