Abolishing the law of commandments

[Xeno.of.athens]

What is a "grave" sin? Sin is sin. Does it violate to love God and/or your neighbor?

Scripture speaks of sins that bear a death penalty and sins that do not. Also scripture speaks of sins that lead to death and sins that do not.

1 John 5:16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.

Numbers 15:28 And the priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who commits an error, when he sins unwittingly, to make atonement for him; and he shall be forgiven. 29 You shall have one law for him who does anything unwittingly, for him who is native among the people of Israel, and for the stranger who sojourns among them. 30 But the person who does anything with a high hand, whether he is native or a sojourner, reviles the LORD, and that person shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken his commandment, that person shall be utterly cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him."

​

 

[Clare73]

If there is no law, then no sin and no need of grace...

We are born condemned by the guilt of Adam (Romans 5:18).

Much need for grace. . .

There is law just as there was law in the Garden, the commmand: repent and believe the gospel, or you will perish.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

We are born condemned by the guilt of Adam (Romans 5:18).

Much need for grace. . .

There is law just as there was law in the Garden, the commmand: repent and believe the gospel, or you will perish.

No we are not born guilty of Adam's sin. We are subject to the consequences of being born into a fallen world. We are subject to mortal death.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Scripture speaks of sins that bear a death penalty and sins that do not. Also scripture speaks of sins that lead to death and sins that do not.

1 John 5:16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.

Numbers 15:28 And the priest shall make atonement before the LORD for the person who commits an error, when he sins unwittingly, to make atonement for him; and he shall be forgiven. 29 You shall have one law for him who does anything unwittingly, for him who is native among the people of Israel, and for the stranger who sojourns among them. 30 But the person who does anything with a high hand, whether he is native or a sojourner, reviles the LORD, and that person shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken his commandment, that person shall be utterly cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him."

​

All sin leads to death in the end unless you have atonement. The death penalty was regulated to judges and the Bet Din, which no longer exist.

 

[Clare73]

No we are not born guilty of Adam's sin. We are subject to the consequences of being born into a fallen world. We are subject to mortal death.

"Condemnation" (Romans 5:18) in the NT refers to spiritual perdition, not to mortal death.

The NT presents all mankind as condemned by Adam's guilt in Romans 5:12-21.

Romans 5:18 is the conclusion of Romans 5:12-14, wherein the following "conundrum" is presented for the time frame from Adam to Moses:

1) where there is no covenantal law (Genesis 2:17; Mosaic law), there is no sin (to death),
2) there was no covenantal law between Adam and Moses,
3) therefore, no one sinned (to death), 5:14,
4) but sin was in the world because all died, and death is the result of sin (Romans 6:23),
5) so what sin caused the death of everyone?
5) all men were condemned by Adam's guilt, 5:18.

Romans 5:15-19 is about God's purpose in the First Man and the Second Man, the two Adam's (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, 1 Corinthians 15:45-49), where the first Adam is the pattern for the second Adam (Romans 5:14) in divine imputation.

The guilt of the first Adam is imputed to all those born of the first Adam, just as (the pattern of)
the righteousness of the second Adam is imputed by faith (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:20-24) to all those born of the second Adam, Christ (Romans 5:18-19). . .as righteousness was imputed to Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3)

 

[apollosdtr]

Ephesians 2:11-22 mentions that Jesus Christ is our [Christians'] peace and that he brings together Jews and Gentile ... by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances ... and might reconcile us both to God in one body ...

What do you make of that?

Galatians 2:7-9 is the only explanation I can give.

What Jesus teaches the Galileans isn't what Paul taught the gentiles.

 

[apollosdtr]

All sin leads to death in the end unless you have atonement. The death penalty was regulated to judges and the Bet Din, which no longer exist.

Atonement happens in the fall. The Passover is NOT in the Fall.

Isaiah 66:1-3 Thus saith the Lord, Heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool: what kind of a house will ye build Me? and of what kind is to be the place of My rest?[2] For all these things are Mine, saith the Lord: and to whom will I have respect, but to the humble and meek, and the man that trembles at My words?[3] But the transgressor that sacrifices a calf to Me, is as he that kills a dog; and he that offers fine flour, as one that offers swine’s blood; he that gives frankincense for a memorial, is as a blasphemer. Yet they have chosen their own ways, and their soul has delighted in their abominations.LXX

Psalms 51:16-17 For if Thou desiredst sacrifice, I would have given it. Thou wilt not take pleasure in whole-burnt-offerings.[17] Sacrifice to God is a broken spirit, a broken and humbled heart God will not despise.LXX

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.KJV

Matthew 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:[22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.KJV

Hell fire sounds like a death penalty, to me. (Matthew 5:27-29)

 

[Hawkins]

The angels were tried and judged before the creation of man, and are no longer subject to trial and judgment.

No, right after the judgment, Satan and his angels will be thrown to the Lake of Fire. This hasn't happened yet. The Final Judgment which is applicable to both angels and humans has not yet happened. That's why the devil (with his angels) is still actively putting human souls in his captivity.

1 Peter 5:
8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

The lawless angels were expelled from heaven as demons in the judgment of that trial.
However, no one is under any covenant other than the new covenant by faith, which is not a covenant of law, but of grace.

No again. The gentiles are possibly under an older covenant delivered through Noah, while the Jews are still under the Mosaic covenant if they refuse to accept Jesus.

Both Gentiles and Jews are said to be under Law if they refuse to choose the New Covenant by believing Jesus. "Under Law" here is twofold. Humans are under both the Law specified in a covenant applicable to them and the set of Law which is applicable to both angels and humans. On the other hand, covenantal Law such as Mosaic Law is not applicable to angels, nor is it applicable to humans other than the Jews and legit converts.

 

[fhansen]

Ephesians 2:11-22 mentions that Jesus Christ is our [Christians'] peace and that he brings together Jews and Gentile ... by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances ... and might reconcile us both to God in one body ...

What do you make of that?

It simply means that now, finally and apart from the Law, all men can achieve the holiness that they were created for. Apart from the law, which cannot accomplish that holiness, but with Christ, who can.

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Rom 3:21-24

“…not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.” Phil 3:9

“But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Rom 6:22-23

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.“ Jer 31:33

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

All sin leads to death in the end unless you have atonement. The death penalty was regulated to judges and the Bet Din, which no longer exist.

Nevertheless Saint John sees a difference between 'mortal sin' and sins which are not mortal.

 

[fhansen]

What is a "grave" sin? Sin is sin. Does it violate to love God and/or your neighbor?

Mortal sin, aka "sin that leads to death" is taught to be of such grave matter that persistence in it directly opposes love of God and neighbor and destroys love in us. Lesser sins ultimately tend towards death as well but are said not to separate us from union with God at that point.

We're on a journey, a "journey to perfection" as it's been called. Absolute perfection is not expected in this life, while in these bodies, and yet wanton serious sin is also not permissible, nor necessary to the extent that we truly remain in communion with God. So somewhere in between those extremes the Church identifies a balanced position. Man is still obligated to be righteous under the New Covenant, on that path, making more progress forward than slipping backwards by the end of the day. A complete return to the flesh/sin and abandonment of the Spirit will automatically ex-communicate us anyway.

 

[The Liturgist]

"Condemnation" (Romans 5:18) in the NT refers to spiritual perdition, not to mortal death.

The NT presents all mankind as condemned by Adam's guilt in Romans 5:12-21.

Romans 5:18 is the conclusion of Romans 5:12-14, wherein the following "conundrum" is presented for the time frame from Adam to Moses:

1) where there is no covenantal law (Genesis 2:17; Mosaic law), there is no sin (to death),
2) there was no covenantal law between Adam and Moses,
3) therefore, no one sinned (to death), 5:14,
4) but sin was in the world because all died, and death is the result of sin (Romans 6:23),
5) so what sin caused the death of everyone?
5) all men were condemned by Adam's guilt, 5:18.

Romans 5:15-19 is about God's purpose in the First Man and the Second Man, the two Adam's (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, 1 Corinthians 15:45-49), where the first Adam is the pattern for the second Adam (Romans 5:14) in divine imputation.

The guilt of the first Adam is imputed to all those born of the first Adam, just as (the pattern of)
the righteousness of the second Adam is imputed by faith (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:20-24) to all those born of the second Adam, Christ (Romans 5:18-19). . .as righteousness was imputed to Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3)

I think what @Yeshua HaDerekh is referring to, and I hope he corrects me if this is not the case, is the Eastern Orthodox doctrine of ancestral sin, in which we inherit original sin due to the fall, as St. John Cassian argued in his rebuttal of Pelagius, but not as a result of concupiscence, which was the argument advocated by St. Augustine in response to Pelagius. That said, it is true that we do inherit the sin of Adam, which is why the Orthodox approach is to baptize and chrismate and give the Eucharist to infants, but at the same time why the Eastern Orthodox regard the RC Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (which was the first to be proclaimed by the Pope ex cathedra after the First Vatican Council established the doctrine of Papal Infallibility in the mid 19th century, an act which caused a schism with what are now called Old Catholics*) as unnecessary or erroneous.

*Most Old Catholics became equivalent to the Liberal Catholic Church and the Metropolitan Community Church, however, the Polish National Catholic Church, which is mainly located in the United States, and the Norwegian Catholic Church, which exists primarily in Norway, formed the traditionalist Union of Scranton after the PNCC was expelled from the Union of Utrecht for refusing to ordain women, so in a sense the Union of Scranton is closest to Old Catholicism in its initial form after rejecting the First Vatican Council, whereas the Union of Utrecht has become more about what many people call “Liberal Catholicism.”

 

[The Liturgist]

We're on a journey, a "journey to perfection" as it's been called. Absolute perfection is not expected in this life, while in these bodies, and yet wanton serious sin is also not permissible, nor necessary to the extent that we truly remain in communion with God. So somewhere in between those extremes the Church identifies a balanced position. Man is still obligated to be righteous under the New Covenant, on that path, making more progress forward than slipping backwards by the end of the day. A complete return to the flesh/sin and abandonment of the Spirit will automatically ex-communicate us anyway.

This strikes me as being very close to, perhaps identical, to the Orthodox doctrine of Theosis.

 

[Clare73]

No, right after the judgment, Satan and his angels will be thrown to the Lake of Fire. This hasn't happened yet. The Final Judgment which is applicable to both angels and humans has not yet happened. That's why the devil (with his angels) is still actively putting human souls in his captivity.

The angels have been tried and the disobedient angels have been expelled from heaven.
The angels are no longer on trial.

1 Peter 5:
8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
No again. The gentiles are possibly under an older covenant delivered through Noah, while the Jews are still under the Mosaic covenant if they refuse to accept Jesus.

Where do we find this in NT apostolic teaching?

Both Gentiles and Jews are said to be under Law if they refuse to choose the New Covenant by believing Jesus. "Under Law" here is twofold. Humans are under both the Law specified in a covenant applicable to them and the set of Law which is applicable to both angels and humans. On the other hand, covenantal Law such as Mosaic Law is not applicable to angels, nor is it applicable to humans other than the Jews and legit converts.

Where do we find this in NT apostolic teaching?

There is much confusion here of NT apostolic teaching regarding the law.

 

[Clare73]

I think what @Yeshua HaDerekh is referring to, and I hope he corrects me if this is not the case, is the Eastern Orthodox doctrine of ancestral sin, in which we inherit original sin due to the fall, as St. John Cassian argued in his rebuttal of Pelagius, but not as a result of concupiscence, which was the argument advocated by St. Augustine in response to Pelagius. That said, it is true that we do inherit the sin of Adam,

Doesn't Scripture teach that we do not inherit by birth the sin of our forefathers (Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:4)?
Does it not teach that we are personally guilty of the sin of our forefathers when we personally continue in that sin (Luke 11:48-51), but not that we inherit it by birth.
It teaches that guilt is imputed to us by God, but not that it is inherited by birth, right?

Help me out here.

which is why the Orthodox approach is to baptize and chrismate and give the Eucharist to infants, but at the same time why the Eastern Orthodox regard the RC Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (which was the first to be proclaimed by the Pope ex cathedra after the First Vatican Council established the doctrine of Papal Infallibility in the mid 19th century, an act which caused a schism with what are now called Old Catholics*) as unnecessary or erroneous.

*Most Old Catholics became equivalent to the Liberal Catholic Church and the Metropolitan Community Church, however, the Polish National Catholic Church, which is mainly located in the United States, and the Norwegian Catholic Church, which exists primarily in Norway, formed the traditionalist Union of Scranton after the PNCC was expelled from the Union of Utrecht for refusing to ordain women, so in a sense the Union of Scranton is closest to Old Catholicism in its initial form after rejecting the First Vatican Council, whereas the Union of Utrecht has become more about what many people call “Liberal Catholicism.”

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Atonement happens in the fall. The Passover is NOT in the Fall.

...and your point is what?? I never said Pesakh was in the fall...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

"Condemnation" (Romans 5:18) in the NT refers to spiritual perdition, not to mortal death.

The NT presents all mankind as condemned by Adam's guilt in Romans 5:12-21.

Romans 5:18 is the conclusion of Romans 5:12-14, wherein the following "conundrum" is presented for the time frame from Adam to Moses:

1) where there is no covenantal law (Genesis 2:17; Mosaic law), there is no sin (to death),
2) there was no covenantal law between Adam and Moses,
3) therefore, no one sinned (to death), 5:14,
4) but sin was in the world because all died, and death is the result of sin (Romans 6:23),
5) so what sin caused the death of everyone?
5) all men were condemned by Adam's guilt, 5:18.

The guilt of the first Adam is imputed to all those born of the first Adam, just as (the pattern of)
the righteousness of the second Adam is imputed by faith (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:20-24) to all those born of the second Adam, Christ (Romans 5:18-19). . .as righteousness was imputed to Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3)

Not true at all. What we are subject to is death because of Adam's sin. Sin entered the world and we bear the consequences of that sin, death. We are all born into a fallen world. We are NOT guilty of Adam's sin, we bear the consequences of it. Big difference.

 

[The Liturgist]

Doesn't Scripture teach that we do not inherit by birth the sin of our forefathers (Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:4)?
Does it not teach that we are personally guilty of the sin of our forefathers when we personally continue in that sin (Luke 11:48-51), but not that we inherit it by birth.

That’s correct, and I used sloppy terminology when I said inherit original sin, since we do not inherit the guilt for any act of amartema which is to say a sin we are personally responsible for in a forensic sense.

Rather, we are born into the ancestral disease of hamartia, inherited from Adam, which is missing the mark, a stain on the human condition that leads to death, without salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who restored the human image, so through faith in him, we have the hope can repose heavenly awaiting Resurrection, and be judged worthy to enter into the life of the World to Come.

It teaches that guilt is imputed to us by God, but not that it is inherited by birth, right?

That attributes responsibility for our fallen condition to God, which I came to conclude is an error of Reformed theology. I would prefer to say that since we are created in the image of God, which is to say, we are each icons of God, that image was distorted by the actions of Adam, because God is infinitely loving, He restored that image by becoming incarnate, and through faith in our Lord and Savior, God the Son, the Logos, Jesus Christ, we are saved, and the process of salvation is one in which God restores us so that we once again depict Him in His heavenly and radiant glory.

Help me out here.

I found a good article on Eastern Orthodox soteriology: Ancestral Versus Original Sin | St. Mary Orthodox Church of Central Square in Cambridge, Massachusetts

 

[The Liturgist]

Not true at all. What we are subject to is death because of Adam's sin. Sin entered the world and we bear the consequences of that sin, death. We are all born into a fallen world. We are NOT guilty of Adam's sin, we bear the consequences of it. Big difference.

This is what I was trying to express in my post. That said, I felt like @Clare73 was largely correct, in that her view does reflect a classical Western hamartiology and soteriology to the point where the only differences between her view and the Orthodox view we possess are those related to the non-forensic nature of Orthodox hamartiology, specifically, our belief that sin is a disease, and also that what we inherit is not, as you put it, the guilt of Adam’s sin, but rather the consequence, which is that we do not perfectly reflect the divine image of God except through salvific faith in Christ, and by acting on that receiving the Holy Spirit through baptism and Chrismation, and receiving salvific sustaining grace through the Eucharist.

 

[fhansen]

This is what I was trying to express in my post. That said, I felt like @Clare73 was largely correct, in that her view does reflect a classical Western hamartiology and soteriology to the point where the only differences between her view and the Orthodox view we possess are those related to the non-forensic nature of Orthodox hamartiology, specifically, our belief that sin is a disease, and also that what we inherit is not, as you put it, the guilt of Adam’s sin, but rather the consequence, which is that we do not perfectly reflect the divine image of God except through salvific faith in Christ, and by acting on that receiving the Holy Spirit through baptism and Chrismation, and receiving salvific sustaining grace through the Eucharist.

We inherit the sin; it's passed along to all humanity, which is why we all inevitably sin. The sin, the anomaly in creation, is to be separated or alienated from God, born without the "knowledge of God", indicating a direct, personal knowledge. That lack of knowledge of God, and the solidarity with Him which it should accomplish, is what we inherited from Adam.

But man was made for communion with God. He's lost, dead, sick apart from Him. And yet we're born apart from Him. Jesus came so that we may be reconciled with Him, and enter union again. "Apart from Me you can do nothing", John 15:5, including maintaining moral integrity. So Adam's sin wasn't merely imputed to us; rather it became ours, that state of separation, sometimes referred to as "original sin".