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That's some shell game going on.Correct. . .
we do not inherit guilt or sin for which we are not responsible (Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:4), rather we inherit Adam's (fallen) human nature.
1) And does not Romans 5:12-14 demonstrate that it was not a matter of fallen nature causing the death of all from Adam to Moses, but rather a matter of no covenantal law (Genesis 2:17; Mosaic law) carrying the death penalty actually being in force at the time, to sin against and cause their deaths. . .as there was in the Garden and under the Mosaic law, which caused their deaths at those times?
In Romans 5:12-14, the "ancestral disease" is our inherited fallen nature, and was not the cause of death between Adam and Moses,
which was a matter of sin against law, and Adam's guilt thereof being imputed to us.
2) Likewise, does not the NT present the First MAN as a pattern for the Second MAN (Romans 5:14) in the two Adam's (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, 1 Corinthians 15:45-49), where the guilt of the first Adam is imputed to all those born of the first Adam, just as by faith the righteousness of the second Adam is imputed (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:20-24) to all those born of the second Adam (Romans 5:18-19)...
just as righteousness was imputed to Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3)?
So, while it is correct that we do not inherit guilt of any act for which we are not responsible, God does, however, impute to us the guilt of the first Adam, for which we are not personally responsible,
just as he imputes to us the righteousness of the second Adam, for which we likewise are not personally responsible. . .in his patterning of the second Adam on the first Adam (Romans 5:14).
Our fallen nature inherited from Adam and our guilt of Adam imputed to us by God are two different things, with different consequences.
We are born with both,
only one in itself (imputed guilt) condemns us
(our fallen nature does not condemn us, only the actual sin of that nature condemns us), and
only one is a matter of God's purpose in the two Adam's--his imputation of both their guilt and their righteousness.
They, therefore, being two different things, Romans 5:12-14 does not attribute our fallen condition (human nature) to God, it attributes it to Adam's sin.
What Romans 5:12-14 attributes to God is the imputed guilt of Adam, rather than our fallen condition.
I suspect you may be delighted with the good news!
You don't have to maintain error in Reformed theology, for it is your understanding here that is short of the mark (no pun intended).
You can continue to say what the NT says, which is Reformed theology.
Correct. . .
we do not inherit guilt or sin for which we are not responsible (Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:4), rather we inherit Adam's (fallen) human nature.
1) And does not Romans 5:12-14 demonstrate that it was not a matter of fallen nature causing the death of all from Adam to Moses, but rather a matter of no covenantal law (Genesis 2:17; Mosaic law) carrying the death penalty actually being in force at the time, to sin against and cause their deaths. . .as there was in the Garden and under the Mosaic law, which caused their deaths at those times?
In Romans 5:12-14, it is not a matter of the "ancestral disease" of our inherited fallen nature which was the cause of death between Adam and Moses,
it is a matter of sin against law (of Genesis 2:17), and Adam's guilt thereof being imputed to us which was the cause of death between Adam and Moses.
2) Likewise, does not the NT present the First MAN as a pattern for the Second MAN (Romans 5:14) in the two Adam's (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, 1 Corinthians 15:45-49), where the guilt of the first Adam is imputed to all those born of the first Adam, just as by faith the righteousness of the second Adam is imputed (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:20-24) to all those born of the second Adam (Romans 5:18-19)...
just as righteousness was imputed to Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3)?
So, while it is correct that we do not inherit guilt of any act for which we are not responsible, God does, however, impute to us the guilt of the first Adam, for which we are not personally responsible,
just as he imputes to us the righteousness of the second Adam, for which we likewise are not personally responsible. . .in his patterning of the second Adam on the first Adam (Romans 5:14).
Our fallen nature inherited from Adam and our guilt of Adam imputed to us by God are two different things, with different consequences.
We are born with both,
only one in itself (imputed guilt) condemns us
(our fallen nature does not condemn us, only the actual sin of that nature condemns us), and
only one is a matter of God's purpose in the two Adam's--his imputation of both their guilt and their righteousness.
They, therefore, being two different things, Romans 5:12-14 does not attribute our fallen condition (human nature) to God, it attributes it to Adam's sin.
What Romans 5:12-14 attributes to God is the imputed guilt of Adam, rather than our fallen condition.
I suspect you may be delighted with the good news!
You don't have to maintain error in Reformed theology, for it is your understanding here that is short of the mark (no pun intended).
You can continue to say what the NT says, which is Reformed theology.
Show me the link, please, and I'll read it. But I'd suggest the following for your consideration in any case. Sometimes the differences between east and west are not what some seem to wish them to be.
Original and Ancestral Sin: A Church Dividing Issue? – Journal
Hello @fhansen, the law I'm referring to in the post you're responding to is the old "covenant law" the law you quoted above is the law of Christ or the law of the Spirit..The condemnation is removed because we can now finally overcome sin.
“Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”
Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:1-4, 12-13
All sin leads to death in the end unless you have atonement. The death penalty was regulated to judges and the Bet Din, which no longer exist.
Atonement happens in the fall. The Passover is NOT in the Fall.
Psalms 51:16-17 For if Thou desiredst sacrifice, I would have given it. Thou wilt not take pleasure in whole-burnt-offerings.[17] Sacrifice to God is a broken spirit, a broken and humbled heart God will not despise.LXX
Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.KJV
Matthew 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:[22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.KJV
Hell fire sounds like a death penalty, to me. (Matthew 5:27-29)
...and your point is what?? I never said Pesakh was in the fall...
So curse is still there unless you have atonement? So curse is not abolished because Sin is still here today?Yet sin still exists but not the curse, which was abolished on the cross. If you sin, there is still a curse (death)...unless you have atonement. As I said above, when it says we are not UNDER the law, it means we are not subject to its curse/judgement any longer...it does not mean you are free to break it...murder is still a sin and transgresses the law...
This decision is new to me. . .Again, I reject the doctrine of imputed guilt
Which doesn't mean we aren't still brothers in Christ.and I reject Reformed theology,
I'm curious. . .so what texts presented do you see as failing to demonstrate it?although I am of the opinion that neither Reformed nor Arminian theology can be proven from the Scriptural text.
Keeping in mind, right, that Augustine is not my source (I've never read Augustine), the NT is my source.In opting for the Orthodox-Patristic theology I am embracing it because the scriptural proof for it is the same as that of reformed theology, but the actual doctrines are considerably older and less reliant on Augustine.
Alright, but we're not just made righteous in His eyes, as a declaration, but we're actually made righteous at justification; we're forgiven, cleansed, and justice is given, at least in seedling form, waiting to be exercised, "invested", confirmed, grown.Hello @fhansen, the law I'm referring to in the post you're responding to is the old "covenant law" the law you quoted above is the law of Christ or the law of the Spirit..
The old covenant law is to condemn the sinners...
The new covenant law (Christ/Spirit) is to free us from condemnation by being made and declared "Righteous" before God ...
Iesus isn't an atonement. And He sure didn't abolish the Law... Matthew 5:18 says plainly that until Heaven and Earth pass away, the Law will stand. And even then, Matthew 24:35 says Iesus' words will never pass away... So the Commandments of Iesus spoken to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel are the Eternal Covenant... which are actually the words of the Father, Deuteronomy 18:18-19 = John 12:48-50. Apparently Moses allowed things of hardhearted men, Matthew 19:8. But the same words used by the Father in Exodus 20:6 are spoken by the Son in John 14:21-24... Keep His words and abide in His love; don't, and you never loved Him.
But David says we make our own atonement by being heartbroken and repentant.
Iesus is the Passover Lamb, according to Exodus... Which you already know, right?
__________________________
But for those who DON'T know...
Iesus, the Passover Lamb
Exodus 12:21-27 And Moses called all the elders of the children of Israel, and said to them, Go away and take to yourselves a lamb according to your kindreds, and slay the Passover. 22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and having dipped it into some of the blood that is by the door, ye shall touch the lintel, and shall put it upon both door-posts, even of the blood which is by the door; but ye shall not go out every one from the door of his house till the morning. ... 26 And it shall come to pass, if your sons say to you, What is this service? 27 that ye shall say to them, This Passover is a sacrifice to the Lord, as He defended the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when He smote the Egyptians, but delivered our houses.LXX
John 19:28-30 After this, Iesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture {above} might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put [it] upon hyssop, and put [it] to His mouth. When Iesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, It is finished: and He bowed His head, and gave up the Spirit.KJV
Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.KJV
So curse is still there unless you have atonement? So curse is not abolished because Sin is still here today?
Sin, aka lawlessness, still earns us death under the New Covenant. The curse of the law is simply that it's right, correct, and good, but we cannot possibly fulfill it...on our own. To be under grace means to be with God now: and that union is the basic difference between the old and new covenants.To be "under the law" means if we break it we are under its penalty, its curse. If we sin, break the law, we are under its penalty, death. The curse was nailed to the cross. The law is now not just external but in our hearts as the Scripture says...
There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:1-2)Sin, aka lawlessness, still earns us death under the New Covenant.
The curse of the law is death (Galatians 3:10-12).The curse of the law is simply that it's right, correct, and good,
The basic difference regarding the old and new covenant is that now the law "and whatever other commandment there may be" is fulfilled by loving our neighbor (Romans 13:8-10).but we cannot possibly fulfill it...on our own. To be under grace means to be with God now: and that union is the basic difference between the old and new covenants.
"I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord." Jer 31:33-34
"Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Matt 19:26
"Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Phil 4:13
Hello, if you say you follow the 10commandments of the old covenant then you must also observed all commandments given under that covenant including animal sacrifices, abstain from certain foods etc because it's part of the covenant (old covenant) it cannot mix with the new covenant law, commandments etc .Alright, but we're not just made righteous in His eyes, as a declaration, but we're actually made righteous at justification; we're forgiven, cleansed, and justice is given, at least in seedling form, waiting to be exercised, "invested", confirmed, grown.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts." Jer 31:33
So the ancient churches all upheld the obligation for obedience of the moral law, i.e. the ten commandments, but only if fulfilled by the Spirit, under grace. This is what is meant when Jesus tells us that He didn't come to abolish the Law in Matt 5, or when He told the rich young ruler that he must obey the commandments in order to enter life, or when Paul tells us in Rom 2:13:
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."
And again:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13
To have God's law put in our minds and written on our hearts means to be enabled to love as He does, which is why Paul could also say:
"The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Rom 13:9-10
When we love we can do no harm, only good, and the Law is fulfilled the right way, God's way.
BUT, those were not added Until After the golden calf, made from the earrings of loyalty of slaves. Big difference. Half honor God the other half the neighbour, which is what Jesus taught.Hello, if you say you follow the 10commandments of the old covenant then you must also observed all commandments given under that covenant including animal sacrifices, abstain from certain foods etc because it's part of the covenant (old covenant) it cannot mix with the new covenant law, commandments etc .
Yes, but do you understand why, and how this works? It’s optional throughout our lives, dependent upon whether or not we truly remain in Him. Our faith, hope, and love are all born out by what we do, by the Spirit So Rom 8 continues on to flesh it out a bit further:There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:1-2)
No that’s not at all true. Jesus and Paul both tell us we must obey the moral law, the ten commandments, and they list them. And that’s what the Church received from the beginning which is why all the ancient churches taught this to be the case.Hello, if you say you follow the 10commandments of the old covenant then you must also observed all commandments given under that covenant including animal sacrifices, abstain from certain foods etc because it's part of the covenant (old covenant) it cannot mix with the new covenant law, commandments etc .
The law existed before Sinai but it was given at Sinai for the sole purpose of revealing Sin..BUT, those were not added Until After the golden calf, made from the earrings of loyalty of slaves. Big difference. Half honor God the other half the neighbour, which is what Jesus taught.
It can sum up in this one command "Love your neighbour as yourself"..No that’s not at all true. Jesus and Paul both tell us we must obey the moral law, the ten commandments, and they list them. And that’s what the Church received from the beginning which is why all the ancient churches taught this to be the case.
Would you think it’s ok with God now for us to murder, steal, commit adultery, fail to place Him first above all else, etc? Paul tells us at the end of Rom 7 how it’s done:
“What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!”
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