Abiogenesis is a Lie

[Chriliman]

I have lost track of how many times I have had to say this on this site...

EVOLUTION IS NOT RANDOM!

I agree.

 

[Chriliman]

Only creationists make the mistake of thinking that abiogenesis is random. The laws of chemistry are not random. And so far abiogenesis is the only idea that has any scientific evidence at all. I do not believe that there is any reliable evidence for the involvement of any sort of god.

But then gravity works just fine without the interference of a god. Is gravity "anti-God"? If not you are not being consistent.

I agree that neither abiogenesis or gravity have random causes. I believe both were intended in order to make our existence possible.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I have lost track of how many times I have had to say this on this site...

EVOLUTION IS NOT RANDOM!

And I have lost track of how many times I have had to say this on this site...

EVOLUTION IS NOT!

 

[TLK Valentine]

I agree that neither abiogenesis or gravity have random causes. I believe both were intended in order to make our existence possible.

Having these things tailor-made for us would make us the most important things in the universe, wouldn't it?

 

[Chriliman]

Having these things tailor-made for us would make us the most important things in the universe, wouldn't it?

At least a an expression of what's most important, which to me is love. God is love. So God is expressing Himself through creation and us.

 

[Speedwell]

I think there's a difference between what God allows and what God actually wills or desires to happen. Maybe God does allow random stuff to happen, but it would seem if those things were truly random then they would happen irregardless if he allowed it or not.

Random stuff happens all the time. sometimes random is what was intended--for example, there are industrial manufacturing and design processes which are based on random variation and selection. It's done that way on purpose.

So I wonder if we are not using different definitions of "random."

 

[Chriliman]

Random stuff happens all the time. sometimes random is what was intended--for example, there are industrial manufacturing and design processes which are based on random variation and selection. It's done that way on purpose.

So I wonder if we are not using different definitions of "random."

I try to use the most sensible definition:

ran·dom
ˈrandəm/
adjective

1. made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.

Random must happen before it's allowed or intended for it to actually be random, right?

So maybe God doesn't actually allow randomness to happen and is actually intending to remove it, assuming it's real. Or maybe he never allowed it in the first place and therefore there isn't anything that's actually random, maybe everything God does has a solid and rational reason or cause. Something to consider.

 

[Loudmouth]

So maybe God doesn't actually allow randomness to happen and is actually intending to remove it, assuming it's real. Or maybe he never allowed it in the first place and therefore there isn't anything that's actually random, maybe everything God does has a solid and rational reason or cause. Something to consider.

That makes God out to be a monster. For example, we consider mutations to be random. Some of these random mutations produce genetic diseases which cause pain, suffering, and death. What you seem to be saying is that God creates these mutations on purpose, dooming a child at conception to a painful early death.

 

[Chriliman]

That makes God out to be a monster. For example, we consider mutations to be random. Some of these random mutations produce genetic diseases which cause pain, suffering, and death. What you seem to be saying is that God creates these mutations on purpose, dooming a child at conception to a painful early death.

I don't know, it may be that randomness does actually happen and God's desire is to remove it. Jesus healed people of disease and attributed disease and illness as a binding from satan.

Luke 13:10-13
"On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues, and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, “Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.” Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God."

Luke 13:16
"Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?"

So no, I do not believe that God causes diseases or illnesses, when it's clear that he desires to heal us, not just physically but spiritually as well. I think that whatever this random chaos is, is what causes diseases and God's will is to remove it.

 

[Speedwell]

I try to use the most sensible definition:

ran·dom
ˈrandəm/
adjective

1. made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.

Random must happen before it's allowed or intended for it to actually be random, right?

So maybe God doesn't actually allow randomness to happen and is actually intending to remove it, assuming it's real. Or maybe he never allowed it in the first place and therefore there isn't anything that's actually random, maybe everything God does has a solid and rational reason or cause. Something to consider.

Everything God does has a reason, even if he is using random processes to achieve it.
"Random" used in science merely means "unpredictable." A typical definition comes from The Mathematics of Physics and Modern Engineering by Sokolnikov and Redheffer (a standard handbook in my day) and reads "Predictable by no known algorithm." "Random" can also be used to describe the Normal or "Bell Curve" distribution of a random variable. That is its meaning in "the theory of evolution by random variation and natural selection" because the heritable variation which forms the basis of evolution is distributed on a Normal curve.

 

[Speedwell]

I don't know, it may be that randomness does actually happen and God's desire is to remove it. Jesus healed people of disease and attributed disease and illness as a binding from satan.

Luke 13:10-13
"On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues, and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, “Woman, you are set free from your infirmity.” Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God."

Luke 13:16
"Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?"

So no, I do not believe that God causes diseases or illnesses, when it's clear that he desires to heal us, not just physically but spiritually as well. I think that whatever this random chaos is, is what causes diseases and God's will is to remove it.

Random chaos????

 

[Loudmouth]

I don't know, it may be that randomness does actually happen and God's desire is to remove it.

If randomness does exist even though God is trying to remove it, then that means God is not omnipotent. This all seems to be going back to this little diddy credited to Epicurus

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
--Epricurus

 

[Chriliman]

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

This is the correct answer and evil comes from our own evil desires.

James 1:13-17
"When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

 

[Loudmouth]

This is the correct answer and evil comes from our own evil desires.

We supposedly come from God, so that makes God the origin of evil.

 

[Chriliman]

We supposedly come from God, so that makes God the origin of evil.

We do come from God and we are gifted with our own wills as God has His own will, but this means that we are capable of doing evil things of our own will, separate from God's will. It's this separation that God desires heal, which is why Jesus was sent to do God's will and reconcile us back to God.

 

[Loudmouth]

We do come from God and we are gifted with our own wills as God has His own will, but this means that we are capable of doing evil things of our own will, separate from God's will. It's this separation that God desires heal, which is why Jesus was sent to do God's will and reconcile us back to God.

God couldn't create humans so that we are incapable of causing evil?

 

[Speedwell]

We do come from God and we are gifted with our own wills as God has His own will, but this means that we are capable of doing evil things of our own will, separate from God's will. It's this separation that God desires heal, which is why Jesus was sent to do God's will and reconcile us back to God.

Very nicely put.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I try to use the most sensible definition:

ran·dom
ˈrandəm/
adjective

1. made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision.

Random must happen before it's allowed or intended for it to actually be random, right?

So maybe God doesn't actually allow randomness to happen and is actually intending to remove it, assuming it's real. Or maybe he never allowed it in the first place and therefore there isn't anything that's actually random, maybe everything God does has a solid and rational reason or cause. Something to consider.

Then by that definition evolution or as some incorrectly call it "atheistic evolution" is not random. Nice link and thanks for solving that issue.

 

[Chriliman]

God couldn't create humans so that we are incapable of causing evil?

It's more like God couldn't create humans who were incapable of making their own decisions, including the decision to disobey Him.

 

[HitchSlap]

EVOLUTION IS NOT...

SOMETHING KENNY'SID UNDERSTANDS...AT ALL!